NFL trade watch

[Hammock Parties]

oh myyyy

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— Arrowhead Live (@ArrowheadLive) August 23, 2019

[In58men]

The #49ers are releasing veteran LB Malcolm Smith, sources say. After two seasons with the Niners, he’ll be available to sign elsewhere immediately. Could be some interest for a team needing experience and depth

[BryanBusby]

I don't think you're getting Clowney for a late 2nd. Think it would have taken a 1.

You can argue Clowney and keep the 2nd or Clark though.

[In58men]

49ers have signed WR Nick Williams to a one-year deal and to make room on the roster, the team has released LB Malcolm Smith

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

But counter argument, do you think he just went to those dollar amounts without having some reason to? I mean, I doubt he offered 4 million more to get Mathieu?

Didn't we hear they wanted him in 18? I dunno why they didn't get him, guessing it had to do with a safety they were planning on having back there that had some issues, but whatever on that.

I guess what i'm getting at is that those guys were all on the market (outside Clark) so they were having to negotiate against other teams, I'm guessing.

So my thing would be don't target guys that are out there like that and actually have a draft plan so you don't have to spend.

That's exactly what happened - he ended up in a bidding war with the Texans.

So after he passed on Mathieu in a soft-market in '18, he ended up stuck in a far more competitive market in '19 and just said "**** it, I'm getting him..."

It was a bed of his own making but he was so hell-bent on getting Mathieu that the Texans ended up price-enforcing him into a contract that is gonna look pretty iffy if Mathieu continues his career trend of ending up dinged and being less effective for big chunks of the season as he's nursing injuries.

He allowed his valuation of the player to be determined elsewhere. If the guy wasn't worth $10 million as a FA the year prior then it was only the need to pay him $14 million to pry him out of Texas that suddenly convinced Veach he was worth that much the following year.

That's not a viable long-term approach. That's cap hell waiting to happen and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what happened with Watkins and the Cowboys as well.

I think he needs to curb this tendency to get too locked in on a particular target. It's costing him at the bargaining table both in terms of trade compensation and cap space.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

That's exactly what happened - he ended up in a bidding war with the Texans.

So after he passed on Mathieu in a soft-market in '18, he ended up stuck in a far more competitive market in '19 and just said "**** it, I'm getting him..."

It was a bed of his own making but he was so hell-bent on getting Mathieu that the Texans ended up price-enforcing him into a contract that is gonna look pretty iffy if Mathieu continues his career trend of ending up dinged and being less effective for big chunks of the season as he's nursing injuries.

He allowed his valuation of the player to be determined elsewhere. If the guy wasn't worth $10 million as a FA the year prior then it was only the need to pay him $14 million to pry him out of Texas that suddenly convinced Veach he was worth that much the following year.

That's not a viable long-term approach. That's cap hell waiting to happen and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what happened with Watkins and the Cowboys as well.

I think he needs to curb this tendency to get too locked in on a particular target. It's costing him at the bargaining table both in terms of trade compensation and cap space.

Well, yeah probably. But **** I like those guys so I'll just hope they're healthy and good as **** for the Chiefs.

He's gotten bailed out because of Mahomes on the cheap deal and what he did last year. He's made some good moves as well, but they need some draft picks to hit and help them keep the cap in order.

This jones/hill situation aint gonna solve itself either.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But if that was the proposed compensation in the spring (per the Tweet) then it was still a time the Chiefs could've taken advantage of the discord.

It's not a one-off, is all I'm saying. He has several of these iffy sorts of deals on his register already. I mean that Clark trade/contract is such that he'd BETTER be a top 5 finisher for the DPOY. All the "man, Clark looks pretty good" stuff is kinda strange to me because we just traded for and paid the man as though he's nearly as good as Kalil Mack.

So if he goes out there and provides good run defense and 10-12 sacks, some people are going to say "hey, nice acquisition" whereas I see no way to call that anything but a failure. Brett Veach paid dearly for Frank Clark and if he's not a genuine difference maker, that's another L. Watkins is almost certainly an L; hard for him to do anything that will justify the $30+ million he's going to make in the 2 years of this deal. Hitchens isn't quite set in stone as an L yet because that's probably a 3 year deal with a reasonable possibility for 4 if he bounces back - there's time there.

And I'll ask the same thing I asked on Mathieu when we originally signed him - as much as I like the player, if Mathieu was seeking $10 million/season the year before after AZ cut him and had a solid but not eye opening season in Houston (he was essentially the same player he's always been), where the hell were the Chiefs in 2018 when he was available at $10 million/season and why was he suddenly worth $14 million in 2019? That's that target fixation at work again, IMO - when he wasn't on Veach's radar, he wasn't worth $10 million to this franchise. But once Veach decided he wanted Tyron Mathieu, plan B wasn't even a consideration and he was just going to pay what it took.

Some will applaud that - pick your guy and do what it takes to get him. Okay - but it had better work. It's what I said about Pioli way back when he was dumping over the roster, bringing in Patriot retreads and putting his eggs in the Matt Cassel basket. I thought it was foolish but acknowledged that if he's going to have that kind of tunnel vision - he'd better be right.

I didn’t want Sammy, but it’s hard to consider him an L after what he did when it truly mattered last year.

One could argue that he was well worth the investment based on his game against the Patriots. He was a focal point to getting us back in the game and damn near winning it. He got open and made some clutch catches to help bring us back in a game we should have won...ugh.

I did not like what Veach gave up for Clark, but anyone who has seen him knows he could be a key to this defense becoming respectable. I hate it when analyst say that Clark is a net loss or equal trade compared to Ford. Clark is one of the best rounded DE’s in football. He’s just genuinely good at everything and as seen last season, he’s capable of being an elite pass rusher.

I think Veach overspent bc he knew the time is now. He had extra resources and had to get a difference maker to get us over the top.

We can’t rely solely on a rookie 1st rd player this year after losing Ford and Houston.

[O.city]

That's what Dj is saying though in regards to Clark, with what they gave up and paid him, you don't need him to be capable of being elite.

You need a legit DPOY guy wrecking souls.

I think he can do that though, and I also think our calculus on contracts and such is a little off because of having a rookie QB deal, but once that changes it'll get tough.

[chiefforlife]

Clark is a better overall player than Clowney, Im happy with Clark. No on Clowney.
Clark is a dog in every sense, Practice, Game time, locker room, health wise.

Clowney is known for not practicing hard, being hurt all the time, taking plays off.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But if that was the proposed compensation in the spring (per the Tweet) then it was still a time the Chiefs could've taken advantage of the discord.

It's not a one-off, is all I'm saying. He has several of these iffy sorts of deals on his register already. I mean that Clark trade/contract is such that he'd BETTER be a top 5 finisher for the DPOY. All the "man, Clark looks pretty good" stuff is kinda strange to me because we just traded for and paid the man as though he's nearly as good as Kalil Mack.

So if he goes out there and provides good run defense and 10-12 sacks, some people are going to say "hey, nice acquisition" whereas I see no way to call that anything but a failure. Brett Veach paid dearly for Frank Clark and if he's not a genuine difference maker, that's another L. Watkins is almost certainly an L; hard for him to do anything that will justify the $30+ million he's going to make in the 2 years of this deal. Hitchens isn't quite set in stone as an L yet because that's probably a 3 year deal with a reasonable possibility for 4 if he bounces back - there's time there.

And I'll ask the same thing I asked on Mathieu when we originally signed him - as much as I like the player, if Mathieu was seeking $10 million/season the year before after AZ cut him and had a solid but not eye opening season in Houston (he was essentially the same player he's always been), where the hell were the Chiefs in 2018 when he was available at $10 million/season and why was he suddenly worth $14 million in 2019? That's that target fixation at work again, IMO - when he wasn't on Veach's radar, he wasn't worth $10 million to this franchise. But once Veach decided he wanted Tyron Mathieu, plan B wasn't even a consideration and he was just going to pay what it took.

Some will applaud that - pick your guy and do what it takes to get him. Okay - but it had better work. It's what I said about Pioli way back when he was dumping over the roster, bringing in Patriot retreads and putting his eggs in the Matt Cassel basket. I thought it was foolish but acknowledged that if he's going to have that kind of tunnel vision - he'd better be right.

I disagree. I’ll just leave it at that.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Buckweath

Clark was obtained for compensation equivalent to a late 1st round pick and a 4th round pick (same year).

Clark is the better passrusher which is more valuable.

I remember Clark tweeting that all he wanted was a bag and the sack record.

He's got the bag now. I wonder if he could actually have that monster year in terms of sacks. I mean, he won't beat the sack record but I don't know that 15-20 sacks is out of question.

I feel good about him.

The cost to move up 8 spots in the 3rd was roughly the value of a late 4th round pick. So the Chiefs gave up a 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder (in real value) for Clark and a 4th rounder.

That's a fair amount more than a 2nd round pick. I mean you just crunch the numbers on the hallowed 'draft pick chart' and you're effectively talking about roughly the 22nd overall pick when you start setting everything off.

Again - that's quite a bit more valuable than a 2nd round pick. Somewhere around twice as valuable depending on where everything may ultimately shake out.

And it's just awfully difficult to say that Clark is worth twice the trade compensation as Clowney, is it not? Especially when both guys are looking at similar contract demands.

And again - I'm not saying this deal can't work out. I'm just saying that I think some folks are moving that bar pretty low, pretty fast. If I'm betting, I'd say that Clark goes out there and plays well. But probably more akin to Tamba Hali than prime Justin Houston (and that's acknowledging that Hali was underrated). And after giving up what we gave up and paying him as one of the top 5 defensive players in football, I'd like to think expecting something near a Peak Justin Houston impact isn't unreasonable. Hali's deal was worth about 11% of the cap over his peak years and Houston's worth around 12%. Clark will fall around 12% as well. That extra 1% is significant in a $180-$200 million cap era. And while peak Hali was a very good player - I think giving up what we gave up in terms of pick compensation and cap space for something less than Prime Houston when we're paying roughly similar to what we paid for Houston in that era has to be seen as a disappointment even though it isn't a disaster.

I'm just saying that the guy needs to be !@#$ing good to make that contract and that trade make sense. This isn't Okafor here - this guy is the centerpiece to a defensive rebuild and he needs to have a friggen monster year to justify this. The Chiefs gave up a lot.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by O.city

Well, yeah probably. But **** I like those guys so I'll just hope they're healthy and good as **** for the Chiefs.

He's gotten bailed out because of Mahomes on the cheap deal and what he did last year. He's made some good moves as well, but they need some draft picks to hit and help them keep the cap in order.

This jones/hill situation aint gonna solve itself either.

Absolutely, man.

I'm not trying to shit on these players. I really like Mathieu and have been damn impressed by the attitude Clark seems to be bringing. I like these guys and I hope they !@#$ing bring it.

But I think it's important to keep both eyes open here and note that there's real risk that this backfires in a big way on Veach. There were other ways this all could've been done and that cannot be forgotten.

[Buckweath]

Originally Posted by O.city

That's what Dj is saying though in regards to Clark, with what they gave up and paid him, you don't need him to be capable of being elite.

You need a legit DPOY guy wrecking souls.

I think he can do that though, and I also think our calculus on contracts and such is a little off because of having a rookie QB deal, but once that changes it'll get tough.

I disagree. The Bears got Khalil Mack for roughly the equivalent of 2 1st round picks and I don't think they are disappointed at all with that trade right now. He is the definition of a "legit DPOY guy wrecking soul".

The Chiefs paid in comparison a very late 1st round pick plus the equivalent of a 4th round pick (same year) for Clark.

If he gets you 10-14 sacks a year plus good run defense you cannot really say it's a bad trade.

One shouldn't be expecting him to be Khalil Mack out there.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by O.city

That's what Dj is saying though in regards to Clark, with what they gave up and paid him, you don't need him to be capable of being elite.

You need a legit DPOY guy wrecking souls.

I think he can do that though, and I also think our calculus on contracts and such is a little off because of having a rookie QB deal, but once that changes it'll get tough.

We don’t need a legit DPOY. We need a well rounded player who can produce when it matters. Double-digit sacks, a great run defender and leader is enough.

I keep looking at this defense and thinking it will look like the Colts last season, but with a far better pass rush. Colts took a bunch of solid free agents+ a good rookie and made it work due to scheme.

If Jones run defense looks like as excellent as it has so far this preseason, a part of that is from Frank.

I think we have a chance to be a rock solid defense by mid season.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by chiefforlife

Clark is a better overall player than Clowney, Im happy with Clark. No on Clowney.
Clark is a dog in every sense, Practice, Game time, locker room, health wise.

Clowney is known for not practicing hard, being hurt all the time, taking plays off.

I think Clark is a better presence and maybe even a better addition to a team that needed an infusion of attitude on that side of the ball.

But I don't think he's a better overall 'player' in a strictly on the field sense. Clowney is !@#$ing good guys. To me he's pretty much the prototype for a 4-3 under SDE.

Y'all are really underrating Clowney. He's a genuinely elite run defender; one of the best in the business. As much as people are lauding Clark as a run defender, historically Clowney has been better. And he's a very good pass rusher to boot. Watch the tape - he oftentimes draws attention away from JJ Watt. That tells you what opponents think of his ability to get to the passer - they'd rather take their chances on JJ. Like Clark, he can bounce inside but I think he's a little more dynamic inside than Clark.

Taking attitude and health issues out of the discussion (which I know isn't fair or appropriate but I'm discussing the idea that Clark is a more rounded player specifically), Jadaveon Clowney is a better football player than Frank Clark.

The Chiefs can argue that they see the ability to get more from Clark than the Seahawks got from him, but betting on the come on a deal of this magnitude is damn risky, especially when Carroll isn't some mouthbreather that doesn't know how to get performance from his defenders.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by RunKC

We don’t need a legit DPOY. We need a well rounded player who can produce when it matters.Double-digit sacks, a great run defender and leader is enough.

I keep looking at this defense and thinking it will look like the Colts last season, but with a far better pass rush. Colts took a bunch of solid free agents+ a good rookie and made it work due to scheme.

If Jones run defense looks like as excellent as it has so far this preseason, a part of that is from Frank.

I think we have a chance to be a rock solid defense by mid season.

And I just don't think it is when you've given up a 1st and a 3rd for a player and made him one of the 5 highest paid defensive players in the league.

Run defense and a solid pass rush is fine...maybe...if you're giving up a lot in trade OR in cap. But when you're giving up both, you'd better get a monster for your troubles. You could give up less cap and no pick compensation and have gotten a guy like you're describing in Trey Flowers.

But when you're giving up more cap AND a pick haul, solid sack figures and strong run defense isn't good enough.