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T-post Tom 02-14-2019 03:33 PM

PFFs Top 25 Cornerbacks of 2018
 
https://www.profootballfocus.com/new...he-nfl-in-2018

PFFs Top 25 CBs of 2018


With the regular season in the books, we are counting down the highest-graded cornerbacks this season in the NFL. With every throw and catch attributed to someone in coverage this season, here’s who played the best.

[Editor’s Note: The list below purely runs off our Player Grades, which are made available to all of our EDGE and ELITE subscribers.]

1. STEPHON GILMORE, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

It was a career year for Gilmore whom Bill Belichick has taken to employing as a weapon in the secondary. New England shadowed receivers more than any other team in the NFL this season, and it was often Gilmore’s job to take away the other team’s top receiving threat. He tracked receivers in 13 games this year yet still only allowed 42 catches on 90 targets for 466 yards all year.

2. DESMOND KING II, LOS ANGELES CHARGERS

The league’s preeminent slot cornerback at the moment, King simply doesn’t allow many first downs. On his 78 targets this past season, only 22 went for first downs. 81 cornerbacks allowed more first downs in their coverage this season.

3. CHRIS HARRIS JR., DENVER BRONCOS

Harris was at the top of his game before ending up on the IR. He may have only played 12 games, but he allowed a passer rating of only 63.6 when healthy. The Broncos corner was back to his stingy ways in the red zone once again, allowing only one touchdown on the year.

4. KAREEM JACKSON, HOUSTON TEXANS

It was a rough Wild Card weekend for Jackson, but during the regular season, he was the Swiss Army Knife for the Texans. Alternating between safety and corner, Jackson had a career revival this past season. He didn’t allow a touchdown all season long.

5. BYRON JONES, DALLAS COWBOYS

One of PFF’s top-10 breakout players from 2018, Jones season at corner was so dominant it makes you wonder why he ever was stuck at safety in the first place. PFF’s first-team All-Pro corner allowed a 53.6 percent catch rate and had 10 pass breakups.

6. JASON MCCOURTY, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS

Yet another Patriots corner who had a career year. McCourty allowed a completion percentage of only 58.9 on the season, his lowest for a single season in his career. Arguably his most impressive stat on the year, though, was that McCourty committed one penalty all season long.

7. KYLE FULLER, CHICAGO BEARS

Fuller may not have been the stingiest cornerback in coverage this season, allowing 745 yards, but few had his playmaking ability. Fuller’s seven interceptions led the NFL while his 12 pass breakups were second at the position.

8. PATRICK PETERSON, ARIZONA CARDINALS

While the rest of the Arizona defense crumbled around him, Peterson continued his elite play. He allowed 30 catches all season long. That’s fewer than two per game. His 0.63 yards allowed per coverage snap was the lowest in the league.

9. BRYCE CALLAHAN, CHICAGO BEARS

Callahan made himself some money with his play for Chicago this season in the slot. His 0.72 yards per coverage snap was the fifth-lowest at the position in the NFL, and he only allowed a passer rating of 80.5 in his coverage.

10. JOHNATHAN JOSEPH, HOUSTON TEXANS

At 34 years old, Joseph had a bounce-back year in a big way. After allowing the highest passer rating in almost a decade last season, Joseph only allowed a passer rating of 76.0 this season.

11. PRINCE AMUKAMARA, CHICAGO BEARS

While Amukamara’s career has been plagued by injury, he’s been one of the most consistent corners in the NFL when healthy. That was finally the case again in 2018, and he earned a career-high grade because of it. Amukamara allowed a passer rating of 82.9 this past season.

12. DENZEL WARD, CLEVELAND BROWNS

The highest-graded rookie cornerback on this list, Ward lived up to his top-five billing. He allowed a catch rate of 53.7 and passer rating of 70.7 to immediately transform the Browns secondary. We’ll be seeing his name on this list for years to come.

13. MARLON HUMPHREY, BALTIMORE RAVENS

After a solid rookie season, Humphrey quite comfortably established himself as one of the best cornerbacks in the NFL this year. His 52.5 catch rate allowed was the seventh-best in the league this season and his 22.5 percent forced incompletion rate was third-best.

14. CASEY HAYWARD JR., LOS ANGELES CHARGERS

It wasn’t quite the production we saw from Hayward in 2017, but some of that wasn’t his fault. Quarterbacks simply stopped targeting Hayward as much this season. He was the third-least targeted cornerback per coverage snap. The Chargers corner allowed only 32 catches all season.

15. PIERRE DESIR, INDIANAPOLIS COLTS

While Desir had a career year in coverage, his ability against the run was key in the Colts’ cover-2 heavy defense. He finished the season with the second-best run defense grade of all corners.

16. XAVIEN HOWARD, MIAMI DOLPHINS

Howard had a very boom-or-bust season. His 50.9 percent catch rate was third-best in the NFL, but at the same time, his 16.2 yards per catch allowed was the second-worst among corners. Still, seven picks in only 12 games is pretty absurd production for the Dolphins corner.

17. A.J. BOUYE, JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS

Bouye wasn’t near the level we saw over the last two seasons, but it’s difficult to complain about still being the 17th-best corner in the NFL. Bouye only allowed 417 yards on the season, but his 67.2 percent catch rate allowed was nearly 20 percentage points higher than a season ago.

18. DARIUS SLAY, DETROIT LIONS

The interceptions might not have been there this season, but targeting Slay still wasn’t beneficial for opposing quarterbacks this season. He had the sixth-best forced incompletion rate at 19.8 and was third in the NFL was 12 pass breakups.

19. TRUMAINE JOHNSON, NEW YORK JETS

After a down 2017, Johnson was once again at the top of his game when healthy. He played in only 10 games this season but still managed to nab four interceptions.

20. MARSHON LATTIMORE, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS

It wasn’t the year Lattimore had hoped for after a dominant rookie season, but he had one of the toughest draws of any corner this season. Lattimore tracked Mike Evans, Odell Beckham Jr., Michael Crabtree, Alshon Jeffery, Calvin Ridley, Amari Cooper, Mike Evans and Antonio Brown this year.

21. STEVEN NELSON, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS

He may have allowed the second-most yards of any cornerback in the NFL (825), but it’s only because he was targeted eight times more than any corner in the league. His 53.1 percent catch rate and 76.8 passer rating allowed show how good Nelson really was this year.


22. WILLIAM JACKSON III, CINCINNATI BENGALS

While the Bengals’ pass defense was atrocious, Jackson more than held his own. He allowed only 38 catches all season long and had 10 pass breakups on the year.

23. ADOREE’ JACKSON, TENNESSEE TITANS

Jackson was picked on ruthlessly in the Titans’ defense, getting 105 passes thrown his way this season. He continued his high-level of play, though, allowing a catch rate of 62.9 and had seven pass breakups.

24. JALEN RAMSEY, JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS

While Bouye took a small step back from 2017, Ramsey took an even bigger one. He allowed 163 more yards this season and had four fewer combined pass breakups and interceptions.

25. JAIRE ALEXANDER, GREEN BAY PACKERS


It was a rocky first year at times for Alexander, who also battled through injury, but the high-level play from him was as good as anyone in the NFL. His five pass breakup game against the Rams was one of the best from any corner this year.

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 03:39 PM

"targeted 8 times more than any corner" seems a dubious claim...

The Franchise 02-14-2019 03:41 PM

He can go play for another team.

Mecca 02-14-2019 03:43 PM

These stats mean **** all, Steven Nelson is not good.

ptlyon 02-14-2019 03:43 PM

Where the hell is Chung on there

Halfcan 02-14-2019 03:44 PM

How many penalties did Nelson have that added to his totals?

jjchieffan 02-14-2019 03:44 PM

Wait? You mean Peters isn't on this list?? But the experts here on CP told me that he was the bestest ever and that we shouldn't have traded him? Shouldn't he be at least in the top 5, if not number 1?

Mecca 02-14-2019 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjchieffan (Post 14106701)
Wait? You mean Peters isn't on this list?? But the experts here on CP told me that he was the bestest ever and that we shouldn't have traded him? Shouldn't he be at least in the top 5, if not number 1?

This list is ass...you think Nelson is better than Ramsey?

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfcan (Post 14106700)
How many penalties did Nelson have that added to his totals?

Yeah, PFF tracks penalties and subtracts accordingly. My memory is that he had 7 penalties enforced against him but there may have been a couple of non DPI or Holdings in there as well.

EDIT: 9, he had an offsides and illegal use of hands. So 9 penalties for 121 yards over the course of the season.

jjchieffan 02-14-2019 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 14106702)
This list is ass...you think Nelson is better than Ramsey?

hell no. But, after the year Peters had, he doesn't belong there either. I was just stating that Peters wasn't such a big loss after all.

O.city 02-14-2019 03:55 PM

When you're going to rely on bend don't break style defense and just trying to stop people in the redzone, Peters was a big loss. For this scheme he was good because he could take the ball away and that was out best way to stop teams.

Hopefully that's not the case anymore.

pugsnotdrugs19 02-14-2019 03:57 PM

Being targeted a lot isn’t a matter of bad luck. Teams went after Nelson and it worked plenty enough to be worth it.

FAX 02-14-2019 04:00 PM

I should probably read the article before asking this question, but what was the cutoff in terms of starts?

Admittedly, I know far less about other teams (compared to the Chiefs), but I do try and keep up-to-date on things. This list seems a tad odd, to me. Maybe I should take the time to read this column.

FAX

FAX 02-14-2019 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106719)
Being targeted a lot isn’t a matter of bad luck. Teams went after Nelson and it worked plenty enough to be worth it.

Excellent point, Mr. pugsnotdrugs19.

The sign of a good corner is one that isn't targeted much. Period. After that, it's completion percentage, then individual play-making (INTs, etc.).

For a second there, I imagined what it would be like to have a couple of these guys in our d-backfield. Then I got sad, so I blocked the idea out of my mind entirely.

FAX

Chief Pagan 02-14-2019 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106719)
Being targeted a lot isn’t a matter of bad luck. Teams went after Nelson and it worked plenty enough to be worth it.

Yea. My first thought, if Nelson was actually so good, why weren't teams going some place else against KC. Although I guess KC gave up plenty of passing yards to go around.

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106719)
Being targeted a lot isn’t a matter of bad luck. Teams went after Nelson and it worked plenty enough to be worth it.

Not really; his rate stats compared favorably to the best CBs in the league. They weren't successful with any great frequency against him but teams had to score a lot against us and play a fair amount of catchup so they attacked through the air a ton.

I mean c'mon - a 53% completion percentage and 77 QB rating is ass. That's worse than Blake Bortles and that's how QBs did when throwing at Nelson.

The hate Nelson gets here is laughable - that guy had a good year and is a solid NFL starting quarterback. The market is gonna reward him handsomely for it and while he may never be that solid again, it's silly to say he wasn't a good player for the Chiefs this season.

He was. Not great, but good.

T-post Tom 02-14-2019 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 14106702)
This list is ass...you think Nelson is better than Ramsey?


"With the regular season in the books, we are counting down the highest-graded cornerbacks this season in the NFL. With every throw and catch attributed to someone in coverage this season, here’s who played the best.

[Editor’s Note: The list below purely runs off our Player Grades, which are made available to all of our EDGE and ELITE subscribers.]"

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom (Post 14106751)
"With the regular season in the books, we are counting down the highest-graded cornerbacks this season in the NFL. With every throw and catch attributed to someone in coverage this season, here’s who played the best.

[Editor’s Note: The list below purely runs off our Player Grades, which are made available to all of our EDGE and ELITE subscribers.]"

You need to have that subscription for a year before you realize how biased those figures are. I had one about 4 years back and noted back then that you can watch a game that you're completely disinterested in and see where those graders are just wrong. The year I noticed it was probably 2013 when Chandler Jones was outstanding and Ninkovich was also very good. PFF had Jones grading negatively on the year and Ninkovich, who in my eyes was good but not quite as good as Jones, was grading out as elite.

The PFF grader just flat !@#$ing didn't like Chandler Jones and really like Ninkovich. It was weird but you could go through it week after week and it just jumped out at you.

Worse, the sample size, though seemingly large given that it's an entire year, is still pretty damn small. One bad game can torch a guys entire season.

PFF is a tool but it's not an answer. But here it doesn't really need to be - there were other measures that Nelson performed well in also. And ultimately PFF does a nice job of establishing general tiers - if you're 'ranked' 20th by PFF, I don't have a problem saying you're somewhere in the firmly above average to good range. I won't concede that you were the 20th best CB, but even with some fudge factor it's fair to say you're probably in the 30-40 range at worst.

Nelson was fine this year.

Mecca 02-14-2019 04:19 PM

I honestly question their player grades at times.

htismaqe 02-14-2019 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ptlyon (Post 14106697)
Where the hell is Chung on there

Chung is a safety.

And a leader of men.

staylor26 02-14-2019 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106732)
Not really; his rate stats compared favorably to the best CBs in the league. They weren't successful with any great frequency against him but teams had to score a lot against us and play a fair amount of catchup so they attacked through the air a ton.

I mean c'mon - a 53% completion percentage and 77 QB rating is ass. That's worse than Blake Bortles and that's how QBs did when throwing at Nelson.

The hate Nelson gets here is laughable - that guy had a good year and is a solid NFL starting quarterback. The market is gonna reward him handsomely for it and while he may never be that solid again, it's silly to say he wasn't a good player for the Chiefs this season.

He was. Not great, but good.

Why the **** are you allowed to say this completely reasonable shit but when I do it’s the prime example of me being a huge homer?


LMAO

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 14106783)
Why the **** are you allowed to say this completely reasonable shit but when I do it’s the prime example of me being a huge homer?


LMAO

Because you're a huge homer and I'm reasonable.

It's one of those "a broken watch is right twice a day" things. You should just be happy that you get to agree with me sometimes...

htismaqe 02-14-2019 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106831)
Because you're a huge homer and I'm reasonable.

It's one of those "a broken watch is right twice a day" things. You should just be happy that you get to agree with me sometimes...

ROFL

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 14106774)
I honestly question their player grades at times.

Totally fair and extremely easy to do when you have the full access (which I cancelled when they took half their shit behind a paywall and stuck it into an even higher tier that you could either pay 3 times as much for on an annual basis or pay something like 40% of the previous annual prescription fee per month to get).

It was a ridiculous gouge so I told them to **** off, especially after I saw so many questionable ratings on a week to week basis.

Those guys are no less prone to confirmation bias than anyone.

staylor26 02-14-2019 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106831)
Because you're a huge homer and I'm reasonable.

It's one of those "a broken watch is right twice a day" things. You should just be happy that you get to agree with me sometimes...

Lol **** you!

Skyy God 02-14-2019 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106684)
"targeted 8 times more than any corner" seems a dubious claim...

Probs 8 more times.

pugsnotdrugs19 02-14-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106732)
Not really; his rate stats compared favorably to the best CBs in the league. They weren't successful with any great frequency against him but teams had to score a lot against us and play a fair amount of catchup so they attacked through the air a ton.

I mean c'mon - a 53% completion percentage and 77 QB rating is ass. That's worse than Blake Bortles and that's how QBs did when throwing at Nelson.

The hate Nelson gets here is laughable - that guy had a good year and is a solid NFL starting quarterback. The market is gonna reward him handsomely for it and while he may never be that solid again, it's silly to say he wasn't a good player for the Chiefs this season.

He was. Not great, but good.

I never felt comfortable with Nelson going against good receivers or big receivers. I was always expecting him to get beat deep at least once a game and to have at least one big penalty.

I just go with my gut and eyes with this deal. I’ve rarely ever watched Chiefs games with Nelson in them and thought, damn, that’s a really solid CB. He just gives up too many big plays either via catch or flag, especially in big moments. He rarely ever played well in big games, and his ball skills are far below average.

saphojunkie 02-14-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cave Johnson (Post 14106841)
Probs 8 more times.

this.

grammar matters

FAX 02-14-2019 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106732)
Not really; his rate stats compared favorably to the best CBs in the league. They weren't successful with any great frequency against him but teams had to score a lot against us and play a fair amount of catchup so they attacked through the air a ton.

I mean c'mon - a 53% completion percentage and 77 QB rating is ass. That's worse than Blake Bortles and that's how QBs did when throwing at Nelson.

The hate Nelson gets here is laughable - that guy had a good year and is a solid NFL starting quarterback. The market is gonna reward him handsomely for it and while he may never be that solid again, it's silly to say he wasn't a good player for the Chiefs this season.

He was. Not great, but good.

That's true ... up to a point, Mr. DJ's left nut.

On the other hand, a defense WANTS to force the enemy to be one-dimensional. Whether it's run or pass, you want to know what's coming ... so you can be better prepared. It's an age-old football motif. It gives the defense a significant advantage. (Of course, I'm not telling you anything you don't know.)

But given that basic fact, in a world where we KNOW the enemy is going to pass, it's reasonable to expect that we should have been far more effective defending the air game. Heck, it's one of the reasons the pass rush stats were good for the Chiefs this year.

Recognizing that the opponent is often playing "catch-up" doesn't let the d-backfield off the hook. Considering that we could expect that the majority of snaps are going to be pass-oriented (combined with the fact that our pass rush was reasonably effective), I question why we gave up so many crucial, big plays at critical times. The circumstances and conditions should have favored our DBs. I can't say they did.

FAX

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106853)
I never felt comfortable with Nelson going against good receivers or big receivers. I was always expecting him to get beat deep at least once a game and to have at least one big penalty.

You shouldn't have. He's not an elite DB and the rules are tilted towards the offense, notably the passing game. And?

I never felt comfortable with Flowers against premier receivers or large receivers either - but he was still solid. And again, I know what you expect and why, but the numbers simply don't bear it out. So you can cling to your expectations and preconceived notions if you want, but it's not exactly fair to do so and then call it a rational argument - it ain't.

When it comes to a position like CB, especially in a passing league, everything is relative. Relative to his peers, Nelson was solid to good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX (Post 14106857)
That's true ... up to a point, Mr. DJ's left nut.

.....

But given that basic fact, in a world where we KNOW the enemy is going to pass, it's reasonable to expect that we should have been far more effective defending the air game. Heck, it's one of the reasons the pass rush stats were good for the Chiefs this year.

Recognizing that the opponent is often playing "catch-up" doesn't let the d-backfield off the hook. Considering that we could expect that the majority of snaps are going to be pass-oriented (combined with the fact that our pass rush was reasonably effective), I question why we gave up so many crucial, big plays at critical times. The circumstances and conditions should have favored our DBs. I can't say they did.

FAX

They do and they don't.

Let's also recognize that yes, there is an advantage of knowing what's coming...and a disadvantage of not reaaaaaly caring all that much. because you saw how Sutton aligned those DBs out there, didn't you? He had those guys screaming backwards at the snap way too damn often. When Sutton had them going backwards in that bend but don't break stuff, a man corner has little to no chance to just lock someone down. He's gonna give up yards.

Moreover, when you say that the Chiefs defensive backfield gave up a ton of big plays - those would've been reflected in his overall numbers and they simply weren't. On a rate basis, he simply wasn't beaten all that often. It's DAMN hard to just disregard a 53% completion percentage against and yet many are trying to do that.

I'm not trying to oversell Nelson here and say he's an elite CB - but I think he's been given awfully short shrift because A) many didn't like the pick to begin with (myself loudly included), B) he was trash in 2017 and C) Well...he's kind of a shithead.

But that doesn't mean that he wasn't solid last year - he was. And when he was out there keeping half the throws in his general direction from being completed and allowed few enough deep completions against him to hold QBs throwing at him to a rating lower than Blake Bortles...well damn, just how bad could he have been?

We just forget the times he did his job well because he's easy to dislike. He's an undersized, mouthy, physical corner who seems to get a kick out of antagonizing fans and needs that chip on his shoulder to get up to play. That's easy to root against. But he still didn't suck last year as a general rule.

pugsnotdrugs19 02-14-2019 04:56 PM

I just look at Ward for comparison and can say that I really think Charvarius was a noticeably better CB than Nelson in the games he played. And he was an undrafted rookie. Have to remember that with Sutton’s stubborn scheme, teams could put receivers on whatever corners they wanted to because the DBs didn’t move.

Nelson doesn’t run real fast and is small. If you’re gonna have that combo, you’d better have great technique, ball skills, be a super smart player, or hopefully some combination of those. But Nelson’s ball skills suck, and his technique fell apart far too often resulting in penalties.

He’s average IMHO.

RunKC 02-14-2019 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106732)
Not really; his rate stats compared favorably to the best CBs in the league. They weren't successful with any great frequency against him but teams had to score a lot against us and play a fair amount of catchup so they attacked through the air a ton.

I mean c'mon - a 53% completion percentage and 77 QB rating is ass. That's worse than Blake Bortles and that's how QBs did when throwing at Nelson.

The hate Nelson gets here is laughable - that guy had a good year and is a solid NFL starting quarterback. The market is gonna reward him handsomely for it and while he may never be that solid again, it's silly to say he wasn't a good player for the Chiefs this season.

He was. Not great, but good.

He was complete ass against any QB that was considered good. Brady straight up torched his sorry ass for huge gains in each game.

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106873)
I just look at Ward for comparison and can say that I really think Charvarius was a noticeably better CB than Nelson in the games he played. And he was an undrafted rookie.

Nelson doesn’t run real fast and is small. If you’re gonna have that combo, you’d better have great technique, ball skills, be a super smart player, or hopefully some combination of those. But Nelson’s ball skills suck, and his technique fell apart far too often resulting in penalties.

He’s average IMHO.

The ball skills are certainly a problem and limit his ceiling for sure. I'll note that those are STILL reflected in the QB rating against as that number would've been elite if he could've brought in a few more of those potential INTs. But it's definitely his worst trait.

I think his speed is sometimes underrated - he's not a burner, but he's not slow. He has a genuine catchup gear. The problem is one you alluded to and that's simply size - there were times he did everything right and just didn't quite have the length to get a hand in there.

I actually do think his technique and general coverage savvy are pretty good. I mean you just called the guy a slow, dumb, small, stiff DB with shitty technique - c'mon now, something's gotta give there. He'd be among the worst CBs in football if you went line by line on your list of nits to pick.

His penalties weren't generally technique issues - they were size problems as often as not. He just has to play so damn physical to keep from getting bodied out entirely that he'd have to commit a penalty on occasion. Though again - 7 'coverage' penalties all season and I'm betting you'd have said he committed as many as twice that if you were going by memory. The penalty issue isn't as extreme as some are making it out to be.

And he has a good feel for movement more often than not. He's actual pretty decent at matching routes, especially for a smaller DB. But the fact that he doesn't have great ball awareness makes people think that he was torched - more often than not he's where he's supposed to be. That's why those comp% and Rating #s are pretty good.

He's just a guy who makes ugly mistakes. He plays an ugly style of game and when he doesn't bring a pick in it looks awful. And again - he's a shitheel. So his bad stands out more than his good.

pugsnotdrugs19 02-14-2019 05:06 PM

Re: DJ

All fair points, and so with that being said, what’s the max AAV you pay to keep a guy like that?

Because for me it ain’t much. Certainly not realistic for what he will see on the market. I’ll find someone else who tries their ass off and gets beat here and there for pennies in the draft before I bring Nelson back for more than $4-5M per year.

staylor26 02-14-2019 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 14106875)
He was complete ass against any QB that was considered good. Brady straight up torched his sorry ass for huge gains in each game.

But we played good QB’s throughout the year.

If this were the case, the #’s would reflect that.

O.city 02-14-2019 05:09 PM

Chiefs fans expect a corner to be an absolute shut down corner for him to be good.

Which is fine I guess, but if you want one of those, you're gonna have to trade a few high ass picks for him or suck and draft him at 5.

FAX 02-14-2019 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106872)
...

...

We just forget the times he did his job well because he's easy to dislike. He's an undersized, mouthy, physical corner who seems to get a kick out of antagonizing fans and needs that chip on his shoulder to get up to play. That's easy to root against. But he still didn't suck last year as a general rule.

I'm not a Nelson "hater". Not at all.

And I buy in that his completion percentage is commendable.

I would merely say this; our season would have been significantly better (even as good as it was) if the d-backfield (including Nelson) had made the critical play at the crucial time. You know the story as well as anyone, so there's no point in recounting the specific plays. But one could argue that trading a worse Completion % for key stops in critical moments would be a good deal for us. Super Bowl good, even.

But overall ... if you know what's coming. Stop it. Football 101.

Anyway, since we're talking Corners here, that's my focus. But honestly, I'm not sure I'd rank them as the #1 problem position group this season.

FAX

pugsnotdrugs19 02-14-2019 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 14106901)
Chiefs fans expect a corner to be an absolute shut down corner for him to be good.

Which is fine I guess, but if you want one of those, you're gonna have to trade a few high ass picks for him or suck and draft him at 5.

Ehh I wouldn’t say that.

For instance, Fuller isn’t a shutdown corner but I do think at 24 years old he holds a lot of value and would be a wise extension to make ASAP. He will be much improved in this defense as it compares to Sutton’s. And again, he isn’t a lockdown corner, but he does possess a bunch of above average skills. He’s extremely smart, quick, solid ball skills. Versatile.

It’d be awesome to have a lockdown guy but there’s plenty of above average level players who are upgrades from Nelson imo.

T-post Tom 02-14-2019 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106853)
I never felt comfortable with Nelson going against good receivers or big receivers. I was always expecting him to get beat deep at least once a game and to have at least one big penalty.

I just go with my gut and eyes with this deal. I’ve rarely ever watched Chiefs games with Nelson in them and thought, damn, that’s a really solid CB. He just gives up too many big plays either via catch or flag, especially in big moments. He rarely ever played well in big games, and his ball skills are far below average.

Can't argue with you. But I also think our safeties did a very poor job helping the CBs. The safeties seemed to be out of position most of the time.

DJ's left nut 02-14-2019 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19 (Post 14106894)
Re: DJ

All fair points, and so with that being said, what’s the max AAV you pay to keep a guy like that?

Because for me it ain’t much. Certainly not realistic for what he will see on the market. I’ll find someone else who tries their ass off and gets beat here and there for pennies in the draft before I bring Nelson back for more than $4-5M per year.

I don't. I don't think this team can with the players we have to extend.

I agree that $4-5 million is all I'd pay for him and the market will probably support $8 million. My point is just that I don't think he's going to be as easy to replace as many seem to believe - he's gonna be a loss, IMO.

But it's a loss we're just gonna have to accept.

RunKC 02-14-2019 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26 (Post 14106898)
But we played good QB’s throughout the year.

If this were the case, the #’s would reflect that.

I don’t hate Nelson, but he is incredibly overrated and I’m glad we aren’t paying him.

I don’t see why people want to pay Fuller big money either when the guy did not look like he deserved it at all last season.

pugsnotdrugs19 02-14-2019 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 14106941)
I don’t hate Nelson, but he is incredibly overrated and I’m glad we aren’t paying him.

I don’t see why people want to pay Fuller big money either when the guy did not look like he deserved it at all last season.

He’s going to be better in a different scheme that isn’t so predictable and well, doesn’t suck so much ass. He even looked really good at times in said shitty scheme, especially right before his injury.

I’m telling you, if they don’t sign him now, they’ll wish they had by season’s end.

T-post Tom 02-14-2019 05:35 PM

Would love to see this next year:

RCB C. Ward
LCB 1st rd draft pick. D.Baker/G.Williams/R.Ya-Sin/L.Johnson/B.Murphy
Slot K. Fuller
S Earl Thomas or Landon Collins
S Not Ron Parker

lcarus 02-14-2019 05:59 PM

Didn't Nelson play as primarily a nickel back a couple years ago? I seem to remember him being good in that role.

ntexascardfan 02-14-2019 06:01 PM

Byron Jones must've been really good last year to make the list twice.

staylor26 02-14-2019 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ntexascardfan (Post 14106979)
Byron Jones must've been really good last year to make the list twice.

He’s arguably the best in the league IMO.

Although I could be a little biased because he was my guy the year we drafted Peters.

Chiefs4TheWin 02-14-2019 06:22 PM

If Steve Nelson is on this list, I don't want to use the criteria they use to judge cornerbacks.

Chiefs=Champions 02-14-2019 06:48 PM

Nelsen was solid but hes limited. Below average ball skills means he doesnt get turnovers and hes short so can be exposed by taller receivers. I think ideally the chiefs need a guy who can physically go with number one recievers.

-King- 02-14-2019 06:52 PM

He was probably better than my perception but in no way is he a top 25 corner. I stopped really paying attention to PFF when they said Jamaal Charles wasn't a top 100 player in 2013. They really haven't done anything since to make me think they know what they're doing.

BWillie 02-14-2019 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 14106695)
These stats mean **** all, Steven Nelson is not good.

You don't think yardage given up is a product of attempts? The Chiefs have the most explosive offense in the NFL. This enables the other team to HAVE to throw more, and run more plays. As a result, Nelson and the Chiefs defense see the most passing plays than any other team in the league.

Hoover 02-14-2019 07:15 PM

Beth isn’t a slut. Yeah she sleeps with a lot of different guys but she gets hit on more than the other girls...

-King- 02-14-2019 07:37 PM

Does anyone think Nelson was better than Fuller?

Jimkcchief88 02-14-2019 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoover (Post 14107069)
Beth isn’t a slut. Yeah she sleeps with a lot of different guys but she gets hit on more than the other girls...

Lol this...Nelson is an average corner at best. When you are in known passing downs and still can’t stop the opposition it’s a problem and Nelson was part of it. We’ve had plenty of good corners in KC. Nelson just ain’t one of them. Am I supposed to believe PFF or my lying eyes....

T-post Tom 02-14-2019 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoover (Post 14107069)
Beth isn’t a slut. Yeah she sleeps with a lot of different guys but she gets hit on more than the other girls...

Do you have Beth's phone number?

Hoover 02-14-2019 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom (Post 14107135)
Do you have Beth's phone number?

We all know a "Beth" and figured this response would be coming!

Titty Meat 02-14-2019 08:36 PM

PFF is trash tho

SAUTO 02-14-2019 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106831)
Because you're a huge homer and I'm reasonable.

It's one of those "a broken watch is right twice a day" things. You should just be happy that you get to agree with me sometimes...

ROFL

staylor26 02-14-2019 09:09 PM

The funny thing is often when me and DJ strongly disagree, I’m right.

His arrogant ass won’t ever admit it though LMAO

FAX 02-14-2019 09:12 PM

I see no reason to bring Mr. Rain Man's sister Beth into this debate.

FAX

T-post Tom 02-14-2019 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoover (Post 14107151)
We all know a "Beth" and figured this response would be coming!

Then why didn't you include her ph# in the original post? :cuss:

KChiefs1 02-14-2019 10:27 PM

This list seems wrong.

Great Expectations 02-14-2019 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjchieffan (Post 14106701)
Wait? You mean Peters isn't on this list?? But the experts here on CP told me that he was the bestest ever and that we shouldn't have traded him? Shouldn't he be at least in the top 5, if not number 1?

Did you watch the AFCG and the Super Bowl?

BossChief 02-14-2019 10:54 PM

Nelson is a really good slot corner. He’s just not a good outside corner and gets outmatched by better receivers.He doesn’t have deep speed, but is quick, physical and is a good tackler. He’s also the only younger corner hitting free agency that’s any good, so supply and demand will get him 10-12m per when he’s probably only worth 6 or 7 max.

It’s gonna be interesting to see what KC does at CB this offseason. Imo they need to extend Fuller now...and make a move in FA or the draft for a difference making #1 corner.

The real work needs to happen at safety, though. All of our safeties should be jettisoned.

JakeF 02-14-2019 11:25 PM

He was targeted so often because QBs knew they could pick on him.

CoMoChief 02-15-2019 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeF (Post 14107379)
He was targeted so often because QBs knew they could pick on him.

this.

the whole "well he was targeted so many times" argument is ****ing dumb.

well he was targeted for a reason. QB's will always look to exploit weakest link.

and if it works...don't stop til they can prove they can stop it.

BWillie 02-15-2019 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoMoChief (Post 14107462)
this.

the whole "well he was targeted so many times" argument is ****ing dumb.

well he was targeted for a reason. QB's will always look to exploit weakest link.

and if it works...don't stop til they can prove they can stop it.

A little. But when your team sees 60% more passing plays than some teams - you can see why the Chiefs defense and Nelson gave up so many yards.

MahiMike 02-15-2019 07:16 AM

So Nelson > Ramsey?

staylor26 02-15-2019 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JakeF (Post 14107379)
He was targeted so often because QBs knew they could pick on him.

If that were the case, the completion % and passer rating against him would be MUCH better, but it wasn’t.

So many of you are missing this point.

ChiefGator 02-15-2019 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 14107544)
A little. But when your team sees 60% more passing plays than some teams - you can see why the Chiefs defense and Nelson gave up so many yards.

Ah.. true.

FAX 02-15-2019 07:38 AM

Yards?

Let's look at it this way; More targets means more opportunities for the defender to make a game-defining play. Forget yards. Ask yourself how many significant "game-defining" or "game-changing" plays did Nelson make last year? Or any of our d-backs, for that matter.

The law of averages works both ways.

FAX

Titty Meat 02-15-2019 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14106831)
Because you're a huge homer and I'm reasonable.

It's one of those "a broken watch is right twice a day" things. You should just be happy that you get to agree with me sometimes...

You both are wrong on Nelson.

Iczer 02-15-2019 09:13 AM

All I know is he has zero ball awareness. Teams had to have plays lined up for 3rd and long, chuck it deep to his side and hope they call a PI.

Fansy the Famous Bard 02-15-2019 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-post Tom (Post 14107135)
Do you have Beth's phone number?

Apparently, you aren't a good QB if you don't have it.

Chris Meck 02-15-2019 01:12 PM

Well...I think the big takeaway from this list is that you should NEVER go after CB's in free agency because the position is OVERVALUED to the point where a mediocre corner is gonna get like $15m a year.

**** that. Draft a CB every year and just turn and burn.

DJ's left nut 02-15-2019 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Meck (Post 14108279)
Well...I think the big takeaway from this list is that you should NEVER go after CB's in free agency because the position is OVERVALUED to the point where a mediocre corner is gonna get like $15m a year.

**** that. Draft a CB every year and just turn and burn.

CB and WR are both positions where you should throw numbers at the problem because many of them can contribute on special teams while you're trying to figure out exactly what they can give you at their 'primary' positions. Tremon Smith is a good example of that thought in action. Hell, Tyreek Hill is in that category.

You don't have to hit often to make it worthwhile; If you can find a late round or UDFA guy every 2-3 years that will give you a couple of solid seasons after being coached up, you're well ahead of the game.

htismaqe 02-15-2019 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14108294)
CB and WR are both positions where you should throw numbers at the problem because many of them can contribute on special teams while you're trying to figure out exactly what they can give you at their 'primary' positions. Tremon Smith is a good example of that thought in action. Hell, Tyreek Hill is in that category.

You don't have to hit often to make it worthwhile; If you can find a late round or UDFA guy every 2-3 years that will give you a couple of solid seasons after being coached up, you're well ahead of the game.

Yep. Tremon Smith ended up being one of the more productive 2018 Chief draft picks, despite playing only a handful of snaps at CB.

Chris Meck 02-15-2019 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14108294)
CB and WR are both positions where you should throw numbers at the problem because many of them can contribute on special teams while you're trying to figure out exactly what they can give you at their 'primary' positions. Tremon Smith is a good example of that thought in action. Hell, Tyreek Hill is in that category.

You don't have to hit often to make it worthwhile; If you can find a late round or UDFA guy every 2-3 years that will give you a couple of solid seasons after being coached up, you're well ahead of the game.

I'm pretty certain that Tremon Smith can give you Steven Nelson level play day one next year.

DJ's left nut 02-15-2019 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Meck (Post 14108308)
I'm pretty certain that Tremon Smith can give you Steven Nelson level play day one next year.

HA! You're serious?

Did you watch anything Smith did? That dude was AWFUL out there.

Y'all really need to be more reasonable in your analysis of Nelson. Tremon Smith needs to get twice as good to be an even below average NFL cornerback. He was horrid as a CB.

He's nowhere even close to Nelson and if you cut him right now he'd get nothing more than a futures contract. Meanwhile Nelson is probably going to be one of the 3 highest paid CBs in FA this year.

DJ's left nut 02-15-2019 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 14108297)
Yep. Tremon Smith ended up being one of the more productive 2018 Chief draft picks, despite playing only a handful of snaps at CB.

Solid STs contributor, for sure.

Shiiiiiity cornerback though.

But again - I respect the effort and because of his STs contributions I'd absolutely keep him on the roster and continue to try to develop him. But he has a looooong way to go to be anything more than an emergency depth player in the secondary.

He was awful against the Seahawks.

FAX 02-15-2019 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14108615)
HA! You're serious?

Did you watch anything Smith did? That dude was AWFUL out there.

Y'all really need to be more reasonable in your analysis of Nelson. Tremon Smith needs to get twice as good to be an even below average NFL cornerback. He was horrid as a CB.

He's nowhere even close to Nelson and if you cut him right now he'd get nothing more than a futures contract. Meanwhile Nelson is probably going to be one of the 3 highest paid CBs in FA this year.

Two wrongs don't make a right corner.

FAX


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