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carcosa 01-18-2019 10:36 AM

Tyler Thigpen: Forgotten Innovator
 
Pretty interesting article connecting the 2008 Chiefs to the 2018 Chiefs!

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1...c-championship

The Kansas City Chiefs helped introduce the offensive innovation seen everywhere in the NFL. The college-influenced spread offense—long considered unusable at the professional level—was putting points up at Arrowhead Stadium. These newfangled schemes confused defenses. “What makes this possibility so interesting is that the Chiefs are contemplating a huge gamble. Most people in the NFL scoff at the notion that the spread offense can work consistently,” wrote an ESPN columnist about the Chiefs.

If this sounds familiar and you are expecting a story about Patrick Mahomes II, Andy Reid, and the 2018 Chiefs, you are wrong. This is about a 2-14 Kansas City team from 10 years ago that would be completely irrelevant if not for a largely unsuccessful nine-week period where it helped advance the sport. The team’s play-calling and offensive improvement did not catch on at the time because, well, they kept losing, but the Chiefs left behind a rare legacy for an NFL team: They tried something different. The 2008 Chiefs were a team that had nothing to lose, a third-string quarterback, a staff on its way to getting fired, and the idea that a college scheme could work in the NFL. On Sunday, a very different type of spread team will take the field in Kansas City in the AFC championship game: Under Mahomes and Reid, the Chiefs have the best offense in the NFL in terms of points scored, yards per play, and passing touchdowns, and no team is particularly close. The 2008 team was nowhere near that dominant. But it had some good plays.

“I laugh. People talk now about RPOs and spread stuff, and I said ‘Look, we did that in Kansas City 10 years ago,’” Herm Edwards, Kansas City’s head coach in 2008, told me. “But we didn’t get a lot of fanfare. People would talk about it more if we won more games.”

Think of the 2018 Chiefs as the iPhone and the 2008 Chiefs as the PalmPilot: One was popular and successful; the other came first but was a worse product. It’s an admirable distinction: Just because you were bad while you innovated doesn’t mean you didn’t innovate.

The NFL in 2008 was a different era of football than it is today. For one, college football had little influence on pro schemes. There was some crossover collaboration—the Patriots met with the Florida Gators staff a few years earlier to learn about some of their concepts, and the wildcat offense sometimes employed by the Dolphins in 2008 was borrowed from the University of Arkansas. But mostly, the NFL was not a laboratory for creativity in those days. Also, there weren’t a lot of good quarterbacks. Brodie Croyle was Kansas City’s starting quarterback, and Damon Huard was his backup. Both were placed on injured reserve after Week 7.

“We lost our two QBs,” Chiefs third-string quarterback Tyler Thigpen remembers offensive coordinator Chan Gailey telling the team in a meeting. “Tyler is our guy, and moving forward, hey, we’re going to try to build an offense that’s best for him.”


The 6-foot-3 Thigpen played quarterback in a wing-T offense in high school and in a spread offense at Coastal Carolina. The Chiefs signed him in 2007 from the Vikings, who were attempting to put him on their practice squad. With Thigpen as the starter, the Chiefs’ offense was in shotgun almost all of the time. It switched to wristband play-calling so it could run more plays from no-huddle, and Thigpen ran read-option-type plays, utilizing running backs Jamaal Charles and Larry Johnson while he ran out of the shotgun or pistol formation. The receivers, including Tony Gonzalez and Dwayne Bowe, would spread the field to offer a passing threat. These wrinkles are routine in modern NFL playbooks, but they were not in 2008. And the Chiefs players had to answer a lot of questions about them.

“The most frustrating part was the questions from the media. They’d say, ‘You can’t run shotgun all the time’ and ‘You can’t run the spread,’” said Thigpen. “I knew eventually the game would evolve to that.”

Watching a Chiefs game from 2008 is a reminder of how much the sport has changed in the last decade. Broadcasters mentioned the spread offense multiple times per drive as though it was imported from Mars. In a game against Miami, they marveled at how Kansas City’s offense kept the Dolphins’ defense off-balance on a 33-yard touchdown pass from Thipgen. The CBS crew compared it to the wildcat offense employed by the Dolphins. The difference is the spread kept creeping into the sport over the years and the wildcat worked its way out.

After Week 7, once Thigpen became the full-time starter and the new package was installed, the Chiefs increased their total offensive output from 257 yards per game to 340 yards. They were involved in shootouts, including a shockingly fun 38-31 loss to AFC East champion Miami. They put 450 yards of offense up twice. Nine of their 10 highest-scoring outputs happened Week 8 or later. They were not world-beating numbers—300 yards is an average day at the office for Mahomes—but the improvement was noticeable.

Of course, the spread revolution was coming to the NFL. Just four years later, Seattle’s Russell Wilson and San Francisco’s Colin Kaepernick employed the zone reads to wild success. Mahomes and Reid have changed the way we view offense with creative plays borrowed from all levels of football. The Philadelphia Eagles won last year’s Super Bowl—one of the most offensively explosive in the history of the sport—in large part based on their innovative offenses.

Gailey said he had no problem borrowing from college teams because he’s long thought—counter to many in the NFL—that the league does not have a monopoly on top football minds. He said he’s still wowed by what Oklahoma is doing under Lincoln Riley, as well as other Big 12 offenses cultivating schemes the NFL dismissed until recently.

“I think most coordinators are so stubborn—‘Oh, I have a system,’” Edwards said, who is currently the coach at Arizona State. “But we said, ‘Tell me about the players.’ You can ask the players to do things. So we went to the blackboard, and we decided we’re not going to play a lot under center. We’ll build the offense around what we can do.”

Thigpen led all quarterbacks in rushing that season despite starting 11 games. Kansas City finished the season running 603 plays from shotgun, compared to 361 under center. They ran plays from the no-huddle 126 times, averaging 7.06 yards per play, compared with 4.9 from the huddle.

Thigpen pointed to the stress Kansas City put on defenses—not just because the offense was effective, but because so few defenders had seen it before. Read options depend on reading the movements of one player on the defense and deciding the play’s direction from there, yet defenders often had no idea where the play was going. “Nobody saw it in the NFL, so you’d see the defensive end always thinking “Oh my god, I’m going to tackle him.’ Then he wouldn’t know where to go,” he said. “There was a combination of a lot of things—a lot of teams hadn’t seen any spread, so it was hard for them because we weren’t huddling up every single play. The defense didn’t know how to get the call in sometimes. Communication became so much harder for them.”

“My favorite play of the year was this quarterback throwback—you see so many people running that play now,” Thigpen said, who had a 37-yard reception on the play against Tampa Bay. “Ronde Barber came up to me and said, ‘I can’t believe I let you burn me.’”

Some media coverage at the time hinted at what was to come. ESPN’s Jeffri Chadiha wrote:

Edwards has openly talked about the possibility of turning the spread into a full-fledged offense and it doesn’t sound like a bad idea. After all, more colleges are running the spread offense, and it’s getting harder for NFL teams to find and develop prototypical, pro-style-ready quarterbacks. So even though the spread isn’t an ideal offense for this league—an idea Edwards agreed with as recently as a month ago—it can’t be completely discounted. There are just more players coming into the NFL who’ve been exposed to it.

That November, Jason Whitlock wrote a column in The Kansas City Star about the potential of the spread at the NFL level, which included this prophetic sentence: “The safe bet is to fall in love with the offense, not the quarterback.”

The league eventually did fall in love with the offense.

The spread revolution may have come sooner if not for a job change. In 1997, Gailey was the offensive coordinator for the Pittsburgh Steelers and was building a college-based offense around quarterback Kordell Stewart, a gifted runner and passer. Gailey felt Stewart would be more effective playing in a scheme designed to suit his strengths. “We were studying stuff then that we would like to eventually implement, but I ended up going to Dallas, and we ended up never implementing all that stuff we had on the board for Kordell at that time,” said Gailey, who was hired to be the Cowboys’ head coach the following February. “It was some of the stuff he had done in college and some other college plays we’d seen on film.”

Gailey was after a simple idea that he was going to implement that year if he stayed in Pittsburgh: “What we talked about was how to attack with the run and the pass at the same time,” he said. This is now everywhere in football, known as the run-pass option. It’s been a staple of high school and college programs for years but hadn’t worked its way to the pro level until the last half decade. Gailey said his idea looked, at the time, more like the traditional option offenses seen in college but he was designing more passing options within it for Stewart. “It was more option, and then if you give this look, then the [running] back blocks and you throw it. But it was more of a check, it wasn’t a true RPO-type deal, but it may have gotten to that,” Gailey said.

When the history of the spread in the NFL is written, many names will be mentioned, and this bad Chiefs team will not be among the first to pop up, but they should get some recognition. Sports Illustrated credited them in a 2012 story as being “on the cutting edge of the spread-to-pass craze,” but they’ve been blown away in history by the teams that were more successful. Mahomes, Reid, Chip Kelly, Bill Belichick, and Doug Pederson will be the names associated with this evolution. But remember Gailey, too, who continued to spread the field in later stops with his offenses in Buffalo and the New York Jets.

“The NFL is—I don’t want to say hardheaded—but people are skeptical,” Gailey said. “You had to have teams that used it and looked really good, and the Eagles really did it well last year, and now you’ve got so many teams doing it. It started coming maybe four or five years ago because those are the quarterbacks the NFL is getting [from college] and there are lot of smart coaches.”

The 2008 Chiefs got virtually everyone fired. The next year, general manager Scott Pioli and Todd Haley were brought in to complete the regime change. Another occurred five years later, this time bringing in Reid. The Chiefs are on the cusp of a Super Bowl berth. They in no way resemble the 2008 team that was one of the worst in the league, except in one department: They are still trying something new.

Buehler445 01-18-2019 10:40 AM

GOD **** Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards.

HE didn't do a mother****ing thing except finally say, "Whatever, Chan, do whatever you want. I'm going to play with my dick in my office."

HAR ****ING HAR at Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards innovating a goddamned thing other than new and exciting ways to be the worst goddamned mother****ing coach to ever steal money from the ****ing franchise.

****.

kcxiv 01-18-2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 14049794)
GOD **** Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards.

HE didn't do a mother****ing thing except finally say, "Whatever, Chan, do whatever you want. I'm going to play with my dick in my office."

HAR ****ING HAR at Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards innovating a goddamned thing other than new and exciting ways to be the worst goddamned mother****ing coach to ever steal money from the ****ing franchise.

****.

well he stood no chance. Damon Huard, Brody Croyle and Tyler Thigpen. No one was winning. lol

Buehler445 01-18-2019 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 14049801)
well he stood no chance. Damon Huard, Brody Croyle and Tyler Thigpen. No one was winning. lol

Yeah, **** off. He picked those guys.

He had Green too, but chose to be epic vanilla in playcalling and got Green mother****ing dead.

AND even then, he didn't have to go off and be the worst ****ing coach in franchise history. All the while talking like a tough guy and acting like fans were idiots.

kcxiv 01-18-2019 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 14049803)
Yeah, **** off. He picked those guys.

He had Green too, but chose to be epic vanilla in playcalling and got Green mother****ing dead.

first off, **** you right back! and 2ndly, no one wanted to pick those guys come on now!

Reerun_KC 01-18-2019 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 14049801)
well he stood no chance. Damon Huard, Brody Croyle and Tyler Thigpen. No one was winning. lol

For ****s sake. “He stood no chance”.

He stood no chance cause he’s a stupid ****ing POS of a coach.

Reerun_KC 01-18-2019 10:46 AM

****ing Herm and people’s love of that guy.

kcxiv 01-18-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reerun_KC (Post 14049808)
For ****s sake. “He stood no chance”.

He stood no chance cause he’s a stupid ****ing POS of a coach.

never said he was a stupid coach, bu t who would succeed with them QB's? no one. I Hated herm as much as the next person, but im also not stupid to think anyone was going to win with them 3.

Dr. Yu Weed Tard 01-18-2019 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 14049794)
GOD **** Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards.

HE didn't do a mother****ing thing except finally say, "Whatever, Chan, do whatever you want. I'm going to play with my dick in my office."

HAR ****ING HAR at Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards innovating a goddamned thing other than new and exciting ways to be the worst goddamned mother****ing coach to ever steal money from the ****ing franchise.

****.

Pioli fired Gailey in 2009 because Gailey said Cassel would never work in a traditional pro offense and that they should run the spread.

Dr. Yu Weed Tard 01-18-2019 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 14049817)
never said he was a stupid coach, bu t who would succeed with them QB's? no one. I Hated herm as much as the next person, but im also not stupid to think anyone was going to win with them 3.

All 3 of our current QBs are better than all 3 of those QBs. And that's no bullshit.

T-post Tom 01-18-2019 10:51 AM

Foooooookkkk 2008 Chiefs. Don't want to remember that dumpster fire.

big nasty kcnut 01-18-2019 10:53 AM

My dad knew herm was shit when we hired him.
Dang it I hate it when he's right.

Buehler445 01-18-2019 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 14049806)
first off, **** you right back! and 2ndly, no one wanted to pick those guys come on now!

Apologies if my profanity got away from me, **** off with that take, not necessarily **** you.

But you come on now. I get that Green going down was a bad deal, but he's the one that wanted to become ****ing easy as **** to diagnose on offense. Remember "We don't need to Circus offense" or "We're going to do it like we did it in Tampa"?

Yeah. Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards and his goddamned crayon gameplans got Green dead.

BUT

He had personnel control and drafted Croyle. That's him. And, if he'd have had half a cent worth of sense in his head, he'd have known that extending Huard and making him the starter was a shitterible idea. And yet he did it anyway.

The roster is on him, man. And it was ****ing ass.

**** Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards trying to come back and big time everybody, because we all know when he had a hand in the offensive gameplan it was R2P2. Invariably.

DJ's left nut 01-18-2019 10:56 AM

I like Chan Gailey and never thought he got enough credit for being ahead of the curve in a lot of ways.

By all accounts an overmatched head coach but I thought he was a pretty damn good OC.

Rasputin 01-18-2019 10:57 AM

Someone needs to go eat a bag of dicks.

Buehler445 01-18-2019 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haglund's_Spirit (Post 14049819)
Pioli fired Gailey in 2009 because Gailey said Cassel would never work in a traditional pro offense and that they should run the spread.


Yeah? So? This isn't about old Franchise Killer. This is about Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards trying to bigtime fools into thinking he miraculously had something to do with offense that wasn't run the ball off left guard on 3rd and long.

**** that ****ing fraud.

bobbything 01-18-2019 10:59 AM

Don't get me started on Herm Edwards. That fuggin' guy man...

We have the best offense in the league for 4 straight years. Though older, we still had good players when Vermeil left. Herm comes in and says, "Fugg this, we're going to score 17 points instead of 30." He completely neuters the offense because it apparently scores...too...much (??)

They knew Green was on his way out and did absolutely anything to replace him. We were stuck with Tyler Thigpen (God bless him, he did his best) after Dave Kreig v.2.0 (Huard) and Fragile Manning (Croyle) got hurt. And when literally everything Herm did eventually failed, he finally threw his hands in the air and basically said, "Whatever..lmma gonna go play Mario Kart."

Chan Gailey, also neutered by Herm, opens up his copy of Madden 2006, builds his own team, and creates all these backyard, "draw 'em up in the dirt" plays. And guess what? We actually are able to compete! With Tyler friggin' Thigpen at QB!

God...I hate Herm Edwards. I hated listening to him on Kietzman's show because he was treated as some kind of football genius by the media—merely because he was good for a few dumbass soundbites every press conference. Boy, that guy sure sounds like he knows what he's talking about...and fugg me, he's downright hilarious! I don't know what it all has to do with winning football games, but let's get that guy a microphone!

God dammit! Now I'm in a horrible mood.

Buehler445 01-18-2019 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 14049832)
I like Chan Gailey and never thought he got enough credit for being ahead of the curve in a lot of ways.

By all accounts an overmatched head coach but I thought he was a pretty damn good OC.

I wasn't the biggest fan, but he does deserve credit for trying new shit (Unlike the fraud that is Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards). His biggest problem was that he made no adjustments, he'd have been better off making a gameplan for the first half - which he normally had success with, and then something completely different in the second.

WAY too many games, he'd put up 20+ in the first and <7 in the second. I fully understand that Thigpen was a massively limited QB, but Gailey would have been served to do SOMETHING different after a few looks.

Buehler445 01-18-2019 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbything (Post 14049842)
Don't get me started on Herm Edwards. That fuggin' guy man...

We have the best offense in the league for 4 straight years. Though older, we still had good players when Vermeil left. Herm comes in and says, "Fugg this, we're going to score 17 points instead of 30." He completely neuters the offense because it apparently scores...too...much (??)

They knew Green was on his way out and did absolutely nothing to replace him. We were stuck with Tyler Thigpen (God bless him, he did his best) and when literally everything Herm did eventually failed, he finally threw his hands in the air and basically said, "Whatever..lmma gonna go play Mario Kart."

Chan Gailey, also neutered by Herm, opens up his copy of Madden 2006, builds his own team, and creates all these backyard, "draw 'em up in the dirt" plays. And guess what? We actually are able to compete! With Tyler friggin' Thigpen at QB!

God...I hate Herm Edwards. I hated listening to him on Kietzman's show because he was treated as some kind of football genius by the media—merely because he was good for a few dumbass soundbites every press conference. Boy, that guy sure sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Let's get that guy a microphone!

God dammit! Now I'm in a horrible mood.

Right?

You know all the crap that followed, Crennel in particular was just as ****ing bad as Herm, but he wasn't up on the ****ing podium grandstanding about how they were gonna do it like they did in Tampa and insinuating that fans are idiots for expecting more.

Buehler445 01-18-2019 11:10 AM

Oh, and let's not forget that Squirmin Herman Mother****ing Sack of **** Edwards' foray into the college offense game, was picking up that goddamned WR off a practice squad and expecting him to run the option.

HE SURE TRICKED THEM!

bricks 01-18-2019 11:11 AM

lol this thread

If there is one thing I got out of it; I know that if there is one person Buehler445 would like to punch in the face it’s probably Herman ****ing Edwards.

FAX 01-18-2019 11:12 AM

This article just makes me sad.

FAX

Buehler445 01-18-2019 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bricks (Post 14049887)
lol this thread

If there is one thing I got out of it; I know that if there is one person Buehler445 would like to punch in the face it’s probably Herman ****ing Edwards.

You're not wrong.

Dr. Yu Weed Tard 01-18-2019 11:17 AM

Getting Thiggy with it.

Dr. Yu Weed Tard 01-18-2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobbything (Post 14049842)
Don't get me started on Herm Edwards. That fuggin' guy man...

We have the best offense in the league for 4 straight years. Though older, we still had good players when Vermeil left. Herm comes in and says, "Fugg this, we're going to score 17 points instead of 30." He completely neuters the offense because it apparently scores...too...much (??)


Chan Gailey, also neutered by Herm, opens up his copy of Madden 2006, builds his own team, and creates all these backyard, "draw 'em up in the dirt" plays. And guess what? We actually are able to compete! With Tyler friggin' Thigpen at QB!


God dammit! Now I'm in a horrible mood.

We did not 'compete' with Thiggy. We were 2-12 that year. If Thiggy had started all year, we may have won 4 games. 5, tops.

stumppy 01-18-2019 11:20 AM

I ain't reading nothing that long about Tyler ****ing Thigpen.

Frazod 01-18-2019 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stumppy (Post 14049917)
I ain't reading nothing that long about Tyler ****ing Thigpen.

LMAO

bobbything 01-18-2019 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haglund's_Spirit (Post 14049916)
We did not 'compete' with Thiggy. We were 2-12 that year. If Thiggy had started all year, we may have won 4 games. 5, tops.

After Thigpen took over, we averaged about 23 ppg. Prior to that, we averaged 13.

We were competing in the sense that we weren't getting blown out of games anymore. That defense was the worst Chiefs defense in franchise history.

MVChiefFan 01-18-2019 11:35 AM

When I read stuff like this, it makes me even more grateful for Pat. Good Lord, the shit we shoveled through.

chiefzilla1501 01-18-2019 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 14049817)
never said he was a stupid coach, bu t who would succeed with them QB's? no one. I Hated herm as much as the next person, but im also not stupid to think anyone was going to win with them 3.

Will never understand the extreme hate for the guy. I don't think anyone loves him. But plenty who think he wasn't totally to blame. He's the only coach until Reid who demanded we start a young qb instead of a retread. The only coach in decades to not trade a high pick for a veteran retread. He went over Petersons head to hire Gailey and made the ballsy move to give Gailey license to run pistol. And yes, herm absolutely deserves credit for giving that a shot.

He could have traded for Chad Pennington and this team could have limped its way to 8-8. Instead he chose to blow the team up and build around youth. At least he tried something even if it didn't work.

Dr. Yu Weed Tard 01-18-2019 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 14049976)
Will never understand the extreme hate for the guy. I don't think anyone loves him. But plenty who think he wasn't totally to blame. He's the only coach until Reid who demanded we start a young qb instead of a retread. The only coach in decades to not trade a high pick for a veteran retread. He went over Petersons head to hire Gailey and made the ballsy move to give Gailey license to run pistol. And yes, herm absolutely deserves credit for giving that a shot.

He could have traded for Chad Pennington and this team could have limped its way to 8-8. Instead he chose to blow the team up and build around youth. At least he tried something even if it didn't work.

I thought the draft where we got JC, Albert, Carr and Flowers was decent - Herm had a lot to do with that.

chiefzilla1501 01-18-2019 12:22 PM

It's a good reminder of why the NFL passer friendly rules are maybe a good thing, much as I bite my tongue saying that. The reason Brees and Brady have had a cooshy throne for so long is, it's pretty amazing to look at the pile of shit at QB that was churned out between 2005 - 2010. Brodie Croyle may have sucked... the Cassel trade was horrendous. But from a draft standpoint, what really were our options in the Kuharich & Pioli years. Actually might have been interesting to see if Gailey could have made the spread work. We'd be way ahead of the times and might have stolen a spread QB where other teams failed to develop a pro style QB.

Can't be stated enough how brilliant the move was to trade for Mahomes in what (even if he busted) was a steal of trade value.

ChiefBlueCFC 01-18-2019 12:23 PM

As bad as that 08 team was, I enjoyed watching Tyler Thigpen, he was at least exciting in his notbeinggoodness

Demonpenz 01-18-2019 12:37 PM

Coastal college

HemiEd 01-18-2019 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bricks (Post 14049887)
lol this thread

If there is one thing I got out of it; I know that if there is one person Buehler445 would like to punch in the face it’s probably Herman ****ing Edwards.

I am not sure which he dislikes more, Herm****** or the******* Broncos. ROFL


This line resurrected some really bad memories for me of the Marv Levy Era.
"The 6-foot-3 Thigpen played quarterback in a wing-T offense in high school and in a spread offense at Coastal Carolina."

UK_Chief 01-18-2019 12:44 PM

Never forget Thiggy!!!!

Dr. Yu Weed Tard 01-18-2019 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 14050058)
It's a good reminder of why the NFL passer friendly rules are maybe a good thing, much as I bite my tongue saying that. The reason Brees and Brady have had a cooshy throne for so long is, it's pretty amazing to look at the pile of shit at QB that was churned out between 2005 - 2010. Brodie Croyle may have sucked... the Cassel trade was horrendous. But from a draft standpoint, what really were our options in the Kuharich & Pioli years. Actually might have been interesting to see if Gailey could have made the spread work. We'd be way ahead of the times and might have stolen a spread QB where other teams failed to develop a pro style QB.

Can't be stated enough how brilliant the move was to trade for Mahomes in what (even if he busted) was a steal of trade value.

I will always thank the Buffalo Bills from the bottom of my soul that they traded us that pick.

suzzer99 01-18-2019 02:56 PM

Yep - any Chiefs fan who meets a random Bills fan should buy them a beer.

Lex Luthor 01-18-2019 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefBlueCFC (Post 14050062)
As bad as that 08 team was, I enjoyed watching Tyler Thigpen, he was at least exciting in his notbeinggoodness

They should have brought back Thigpen for at least one more season. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was a damn sight better than Matt ****ing Cassell.

chiefzilla1501 01-18-2019 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Luthor (Post 14050524)
They should have brought back Thigpen for at least one more season. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was a damn sight better than Matt ****ing Cassell.

Not quite sure what Thigpen had. But at the very least we might have drafted a spread qb in 2009. The options weren't great but we would have been way ahead of the NFL curve. Interesting to think about. But in the end, would I have liked a few more competitive years with a limited qb if it kept us from mahomes? Wouldn't trade that for a second.

Mephistopheles Janx 01-18-2019 03:25 PM

From 2007 to 2012 Thigpen was by far the best option QB had hired as a QB. Not that he was good mind you. He was a half eaten tuna melt at the top of a garbage can full of used diapers.

Huard
Croyle
Cassel
Orton
Palko
Quinn
Tanney

RealSNR 01-18-2019 03:36 PM

Ya know, Chan Gailey wasn’t so bad of an offensive coordinator. I’ve always said that.

MAG 01-18-2019 04:19 PM

Long live Thigpen.

carcosa 01-28-2023 11:37 AM

Just remembered this article

Bugeater 01-28-2023 12:18 PM

Tl;dr

Jewish Rabbi 01-28-2023 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carcosa (Post 14049782)
Pretty interesting article connecting the 2008 Chiefs to the 2018 Chiefs!

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/1...c-championship

The Kansas City Chiefs helped introduce the offensive innovation seen everywhere in the NFL. The college-influenced spread offense—long considered unusable at the professional level—was putting points up at Arrowhead Stadium. These newfangled schemes confused defenses. “What makes this possibility so interesting is that the Chiefs are contemplating a huge gamble. Most people in the NFL scoff at the notion that the spread offense can work consistently,” wrote an ESPN columnist about the Chiefs.

If this sounds familiar and you are expecting a story about Patrick Mahomes II, Andy Reid, and the 2018 Chiefs, you are wrong. This is about a 2-14 Kansas City team from 10 years ago that would be completely irrelevant if not for a largely unsuccessful nine-week period where it helped advance the sport. The team’s play-calling and offensive improvement did not catch on at the time because, well, they kept losing, but the Chiefs left behind a rare legacy for an NFL team: They tried something different. The 2008 Chiefs were a team that had nothing to lose, a third-string quarterback, a staff on its way to getting fired, and the idea that a college scheme could work in the NFL. On Sunday, a very different type of spread team will take the field in Kansas City in the AFC championship game: Under Mahomes and Reid, the Chiefs have the best offense in the NFL in terms of points scored, yards per play, and passing touchdowns, and no team is particularly close. The 2008 team was nowhere near that dominant. But it had some good plays.

“I laugh. People talk now about RPOs and spread stuff, and I said ‘Look, we did that in Kansas City 10 years ago,’” Herm Edwards, Kansas City’s head coach in 2008, told me. “But we didn’t get a lot of fanfare. People would talk about it more if we won more games.”

Think of the 2018 Chiefs as the iPhone and the 2008 Chiefs as the PalmPilot: One was popular and successful; the other came first but was a worse product. It’s an admirable distinction: Just because you were bad while you innovated doesn’t mean you didn’t innovate.

The NFL in 2008 was a different era of football than it is today. For one, college football had little influence on pro schemes. There was some crossover collaboration—the Patriots met with the Florida Gators staff a few years earlier to learn about some of their concepts, and the wildcat offense sometimes employed by the Dolphins in 2008 was borrowed from the University of Arkansas. But mostly, the NFL was not a laboratory for creativity in those days. Also, there weren’t a lot of good quarterbacks. Brodie Croyle was Kansas City’s starting quarterback, and Damon Huard was his backup. Both were placed on injured reserve after Week 7.

“We lost our two QBs,” Chiefs third-string quarterback Tyler Thigpen remembers offensive coordinator Chan Gailey telling the team in a meeting. “Tyler is our guy, and moving forward, hey, we’re going to try to build an offense that’s best for him.”


The 6-foot-3 Thigpen played quarterback in a wing-T offense in high school and in a spread offense at Coastal Carolina. The Chiefs signed him in 2007 from the Vikings, who were attempting to put him on their practice squad. With Thigpen as the starter, the Chiefs’ offense was in shotgun almost all of the time. It switched to wristband play-calling so it could run more plays from no-huddle, and Thigpen ran read-option-type plays, utilizing running backs Jamaal Charles and Larry Johnson while he ran out of the shotgun or pistol formation. The receivers, including Tony Gonzalez and Dwayne Bowe, would spread the field to offer a passing threat. These wrinkles are routine in modern NFL playbooks, but they were not in 2008. And the Chiefs players had to answer a lot of questions about them.

“The most frustrating part was the questions from the media. They’d say, ‘You can’t run shotgun all the time’ and ‘You can’t run the spread,’” said Thigpen. “I knew eventually the game would evolve to that.”

Watching a Chiefs game from 2008 is a reminder of how much the sport has changed in the last decade. Broadcasters mentioned the spread offense multiple times per drive as though it was imported from Mars. In a game against Miami, they marveled at how Kansas City’s offense kept the Dolphins’ defense off-balance on a 33-yard touchdown pass from Thipgen. The CBS crew compared it to the wildcat offense employed by the Dolphins. The difference is the spread kept creeping into the sport over the years and the wildcat worked its way out.

After Week 7, once Thigpen became the full-time starter and the new package was installed, the Chiefs increased their total offensive output from 257 yards per game to 340 yards. They were involved in shootouts, including a shockingly fun 38-31 loss to AFC East champion Miami. They put 450 yards of offense up twice. Nine of their 10 highest-scoring outputs happened Week 8 or later. They were not world-beating numbers—300 yards is an average day at the office for Mahomes—but the improvement was noticeable.

Of course, the spread revolution was coming to the NFL. Just four years later, Seattle’s Russell Wilson and San Francisco’s Colin Kaepernick employed the zone reads to wild success. Mahomes and Reid have changed the way we view offense with creative plays borrowed from all levels of football. The Philadelphia Eagles won last year’s Super Bowl—one of the most offensively explosive in the history of the sport—in large part based on their innovative offenses.

Gailey said he had no problem borrowing from college teams because he’s long thought—counter to many in the NFL—that the league does not have a monopoly on top football minds. He said he’s still wowed by what Oklahoma is doing under Lincoln Riley, as well as other Big 12 offenses cultivating schemes the NFL dismissed until recently.

“I think most coordinators are so stubborn—‘Oh, I have a system,’” Edwards said, who is currently the coach at Arizona State. “But we said, ‘Tell me about the players.’ You can ask the players to do things. So we went to the blackboard, and we decided we’re not going to play a lot under center. We’ll build the offense around what we can do.”

Thigpen led all quarterbacks in rushing that season despite starting 11 games. Kansas City finished the season running 603 plays from shotgun, compared to 361 under center. They ran plays from the no-huddle 126 times, averaging 7.06 yards per play, compared with 4.9 from the huddle.

Thigpen pointed to the stress Kansas City put on defenses—not just because the offense was effective, but because so few defenders had seen it before. Read options depend on reading the movements of one player on the defense and deciding the play’s direction from there, yet defenders often had no idea where the play was going. “Nobody saw it in the NFL, so you’d see the defensive end always thinking “Oh my god, I’m going to tackle him.’ Then he wouldn’t know where to go,” he said. “There was a combination of a lot of things—a lot of teams hadn’t seen any spread, so it was hard for them because we weren’t huddling up every single play. The defense didn’t know how to get the call in sometimes. Communication became so much harder for them.”

“My favorite play of the year was this quarterback throwback—you see so many people running that play now,” Thigpen said, who had a 37-yard reception on the play against Tampa Bay. “Ronde Barber came up to me and said, ‘I can’t believe I let you burn me.’”

Some media coverage at the time hinted at what was to come. ESPN’s Jeffri Chadiha wrote:

Edwards has openly talked about the possibility of turning the spread into a full-fledged offense and it doesn’t sound like a bad idea. After all, more colleges are running the spread offense, and it’s getting harder for NFL teams to find and develop prototypical, pro-style-ready quarterbacks. So even though the spread isn’t an ideal offense for this league—an idea Edwards agreed with as recently as a month ago—it can’t be completely discounted. There are just more players coming into the NFL who’ve been exposed to it.

That November, Jason Whitlock wrote a column in The Kansas City Star about the potential of the spread at the NFL level, which included this prophetic sentence: “The safe bet is to fall in love with the offense, not the quarterback.”

The league eventually did fall in love with the offense.

The spread revolution may have come sooner if not for a job change. In 1997, Gailey was the offensive coordinator for the Pittsburgh Steelers and was building a college-based offense around quarterback Kordell Stewart, a gifted runner and passer. Gailey felt Stewart would be more effective playing in a scheme designed to suit his strengths. “We were studying stuff then that we would like to eventually implement, but I ended up going to Dallas, and we ended up never implementing all that stuff we had on the board for Kordell at that time,” said Gailey, who was hired to be the Cowboys’ head coach the following February. “It was some of the stuff he had done in college and some other college plays we’d seen on film.”

Gailey was after a simple idea that he was going to implement that year if he stayed in Pittsburgh: “What we talked about was how to attack with the run and the pass at the same time,” he said. This is now everywhere in football, known as the run-pass option. It’s been a staple of high school and college programs for years but hadn’t worked its way to the pro level until the last half decade. Gailey said his idea looked, at the time, more like the traditional option offenses seen in college but he was designing more passing options within it for Stewart. “It was more option, and then if you give this look, then the [running] back blocks and you throw it. But it was more of a check, it wasn’t a true RPO-type deal, but it may have gotten to that,” Gailey said.

When the history of the spread in the NFL is written, many names will be mentioned, and this bad Chiefs team will not be among the first to pop up, but they should get some recognition. Sports Illustrated credited them in a 2012 story as being “on the cutting edge of the spread-to-pass craze,” but they’ve been blown away in history by the teams that were more successful. Mahomes, Reid, Chip Kelly, Bill Belichick, and Doug Pederson will be the names associated with this evolution. But remember Gailey, too, who continued to spread the field in later stops with his offenses in Buffalo and the New York Jets.

“The NFL is—I don’t want to say hardheaded—but people are skeptical,” Gailey said. “You had to have teams that used it and looked really good, and the Eagles really did it well last year, and now you’ve got so many teams doing it. It started coming maybe four or five years ago because those are the quarterbacks the NFL is getting [from college] and there are lot of smart coaches.”

The 2008 Chiefs got virtually everyone fired. The next year, general manager Scott Pioli and Todd Haley were brought in to complete the regime change. Another occurred five years later, this time bringing in Reid. The Chiefs are on the cusp of a Super Bowl berth. They in no way resemble the 2008 team that was one of the worst in the league, except in one department: They are still trying something new.

Great article!!!

Jewish Rabbi 01-28-2023 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carcosa (Post 16768273)
Just remembered this article

Good memory!

Rain Man 01-28-2023 05:11 PM

It took some innovative coaching to go to 2-14 with an offense that featured Jamaal Charles, Larry Johnson, Tony Gonzalez, and Dwayne Bowe.

MarkDavis'Haircut 01-28-2023 06:45 PM

My Thigpen thread proven correct again.


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