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Official 2012-2013 NBA Thread (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=265784)

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Originally Posted by -King- (Post 9357350)

LMAO And 9/10 Durant takes the last shot. Seems it's 4/10 when dealing with LeBron.

How did that work out for him and OKC in the NBA Finals last year?

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Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9357367)

How did that work out for him and OKC in the NBA Finals last year?

That's as fair as these guys bashing LeBron. OKC lost because everyone outside of Durant and Westbrook shit the bed. That and Miami's outside shooters couldn't miss along with LeBron going ape shit.

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Originally Posted by okcchief (Post 9357408)

That's as fair as these guys bashing LeBron. OKC lost because everyone outside of Durant and Westbrook shit the bed. That and Miami's outside shooters couldn't miss along with LeBron going ape shit.

Obviously, but that's the point. This entire discussion about LeBron lacking some kind of instinct or presence is absurd considering what he did last season.

BTW I wish Durant and Westbrook would defer to a wide open Harden then/Martin now. Sometimes it's better to give a skilled offensive player a wide open shot. However, in the big games I prefer it be Durant unless he has no choice.

LeBron isn't a clutch shooter, but if he makes a big play another way it's just as clutch.

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Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9357413)

Obviously, but that's the point. This entire discussion about LeBron lacking some kind of instinct or presence is absurd considering what he did last season.

I agree. Clutch performances are more than the last 4 minutes of the game. He had one of the most dominant playoffs ever. That is clutch.

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Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9357366)

Why Iverson?

Passed him for career points.

On 2,000 fewer shot attempts.

I always hated Iverson.

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Originally Posted by GoWalrus (Post 9357355)

DIRK > IVERSON

Cool story bro.

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Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9357367)

How did that work out for him and OKC in the NBA Finals last year?

Don't know how that would apply since OKC didn't have any last shot opportunities, but ok.

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Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9357279)

He had one of the greatest postseason performances the sport has ever seen. This is shown in just about every statistic and measuring stick there is. But other than that, yeah, he did nothing at all for his team.

JFC. I never said he wasn't anything short of phenomenal in the playoff run. Stop with the bullshit putting words in my mouth that I've said he's done "nothing at all for his team." But really? Greatest postseason performances the sport has ever seen? If we're talking about the NFL, Big Ben, Eli, Brady, Montana, Elway have had some of the most dominating performances even if statistically underwhelming because they had ice-in-their-veins 2 minute drills. He is basically the NBA's Peyton Manning. He barreled through very underwhelming competition and beat a finals opponent that was woefully immature and unprepared. In that, LeBron's 2012 postseason was a dominant performance that was mediocre in the closing minutes of games. So I don't understand your standard.

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You didn't present any such thing. Ignoring all of the evidence provided of LeBron playing well in close and late situations over his entire career in the regular season which quite clearly disproves your bullshit theory to begin with (http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM, http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM), you selectively picked out a few playoff games last season where he missed a few shots late. That doesn't prove he's a choker or lacks a killer instinct, nor does it supersede the dominant basketball that he played for his entire playoff run.

We are talking about an elite player here and where he belongs in the conversation comparing him to Kobe and MJ. If you were wondering... MJ is 9/18 (50%) on game winning/tying shots in the 4th quarter of the playoffs. LeBron is 5/15 (33%). Kobe is 8/29 (28%). Here's the story. LeBron doesn't come close to touching MJ here. If we're talking about Kobe vs. LeBron, answer one question... in the playoffs, who is the closer? In Miami, it's Wade. In LA, without question it's Kobe. The Heat attempted 7 game-winning/game-tying shots in the 2012 playoffs. LeBron took only 2 and one of them wasn't even the final shot in regulation (Haslem of all people took the game-winning shot). Two years ago, LeBron didn't take a SINGLE game-tying shot. Wade was the closer.

You were the one that is grandstanding about what a dominant playoff run LeBron has had. How can you rate a performance as legendary if he wasn't even taking shots with the game on the line? That is very unusual.

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They were won by LeBron being LeBron for the full four quarters of every game that the Heat played. He came through repeatedly when the Heat were on the verge of elimination on the road. Without him and his ridiculous play, Miami doesn't come close to a championship or even the NBA Finals. But he's a choker because he didn't take or make enough shots late in games to your liking? Because he was willing to pass the ball at times to his Hall of Fame teammates to allow them to use their skills as well to win a championship? It's absurd. Do you have any idea how butthurt all of this makes you look?

Only you would celebrate LeBron's passing ability with the game on the line. What does that make you, then?

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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 9357614)

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He is basically the NBA's Peyton Manning. He barreled through very underwhelming competition and beat a finals opponent that was woefully immature and unprepared. In that, LeBron's 2012 postseason was a dominant performance that was mediocre in the closing minutes of games. So I don't understand your standard.

First of all, I love how calling him Peyton Manning is supposed to be some kind of an insult. Peyton Manning is going down as one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game. If LeBron has a 2nd half of his career as dominant as Peyton Manning's 2nd half was/is, you're going to be very upset (unless of course LeBron rejoins your Cavs in two years which he very well could, at which point, you'll jump right back on his bandwagon like all of the other Cleveland whiners).

Second of all, unlike Peyton Manning, LeBron James is one of the greatest playoff performers of all time (3rd in WS/48 behind only MJ and Mikan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html). LeBron has actually shown the ability to raise his game in the postseason unlike many of his peers (Kobe, Carter, McGrady, etc.), which is not something that Peyton Manning has ever been able to do in the playoffs. This ridiculous, baseless narrative that he can't perform in the playoffs because he couldn't lead garbage Cavs teams to titles over far superior teams like the Spurs and Celtics is just that...ridiculous and baseless. Now that he led a team to a championship it's that he didn't hit or take enough shots late in games that the Heat ended up winning? Games that they ended up winning largely to his dominant play both offensively and defensively? It's ****ing absurd.

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So basically we're talking about the difference of three shots between LeBron and MJ and a total of 15-20 over both careers. In essence, if he hits a few of them this April, he'll be right there with the supposed greatest of all time at game winning shots. Yeah, trying to take any meaning from this kind of sample size is exactly the problem.

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Here's the story. LeBron doesn't come close to touching MJ here. If we're talking about Kobe vs. LeBron, answer one question... in the playoffs, who is the closer? In Miami, it's Wade. In LA, without question it's Kobe. The Heat attempted 7 game-winning/game-tying shots in the 2012 playoffs. LeBron took only 2 and one of them wasn't even the final shot in regulation (Haslem of all people took the game-winning shot). Two years ago, LeBron didn't take a SINGLE game-tying shot. Wade was the closer.

Taking more shots in such situations doesn't make either Kobe or LeBron better players. In fact, the willingness of elite players to defer to others for open, higher percentage shots often gives teams a better chance to win than to have somebody like Kobe or LeBron take a low-percentage, pressured jump shot. And win the Heat did (which makes the criticism here especially odd). It's like watching a star and a team dominate on their way to a championship and then being upset at the end about the way he/they did it because they didn't fit your own personal idea of what a star and a team should look like. It's such bunk. Of course, attempting to ascribe any meaning from a sample size as small as seven shots is again a major problem with this hypothesis.

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You were the one that is grandstanding about what a dominant playoff run LeBron has had. How can you rate a performance as legendary if he wasn't even taking shots with the game on the line? That is very unusual.

If grandstanding is defending LeBron's incredible 2012 postseason from your utter bullshit and these hilarious comparisons to the inferior Kobe Bryant, then sure, I'll do that. There's far more to success in basketball than taking (and in Kobe's case, often missing) late game shots. Really, even bothering to engage in this nonsense gives more credence to your bullshit theory about LeBron than it deserves.

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Only you would celebrate LeBron's passing ability with the game on the line. What does that make you, then?

Somebody that isn't a butthurt Cavs fan with the ability to objectively watch, understand, and respect the game of basketball and one of its greatest players without blind hatred and criticism, I'd say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 9357495)

Don't know how that would apply since OKC didn't have any last shot opportunities, but ok.

Durant took plenty of shots late in games, IIRC.

Cavs are looking a little better after this most recent trade... Could be interesting next year with another good draft maybe a nice free agent and further development of our very young core.

I have not hidden that I despise LeBron (and yes, if he goes to Cleveland, I will root for him to do well but will never like him). But seriously, **** off for saying anything I've said is "butthurt" from liking the Cavs. I have complimented the hell out of LeBron for his playoff performance. You're the one claiming that it was one of the best of all time. Of all time. That's a damn high standard.

1. Stop posting his 4-quarter performance as if I haven't acknowledged his tremendous performance.
2. No. YOU are the one saying it's an insult, not me. When rating best playoff performances of all time... guess what, Peyton Manning doesn't fall anywhere on the list. Big Ben, Eli, Montana, Brady had a lot more underwhelming playoff runs that were capitalized by unbelievably clutch play when it counted.
3. You are an unbelievable homer if you want to suggest LeBron is anywhere near the kind of closer MJ was. MJ was the best closer of all time. By a wide margin.
4. I am not saying Kobe is a better closer than LeBron. Given how insanely good LeBron is... he passes on the last shot WAY more often than he should
5. No, you're grandstanding. You're ranking last year as one of the best playoff performances of all time. Let's call it what it was. It was a dominating performance, very mediocre late in games, against pretty substandard playoff competition. It was a great performance, but give me a break, it doesn't rank among the greatest of all time.
6. I have been more than objective in my post. You are such a homer that you are painting his performance as practically perfect and the stuff of legends. You place that ridiculously high standard then battle back when somebody says it was anything less than perfect. Who's being unreasonable here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC_Connection (Post 9357634)

Yes, one of the greatest postseason performances the sport has ever seen. See here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html) and here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html). Unless you think statistics are somehow biased in favor of LeBron, I don't see how somebody could come to a different conclusion.

First of all, I love how calling him Peyton Manning is supposed to be some kind of an insult. Peyton Manning is going down as one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game. If LeBron has a 2nd half of his career as dominant as Peyton Manning's 2nd half was/is, you're going to be very upset (unless of course LeBron rejoins your Cavs in two years which he very well could, at which point, you'll jump right back on his bandwagon like all of the other Cleveland whiners).

Second of all, unlike Peyton Manning, LeBron James is one of the greatest playoff performers of all time (3rd in WS/48 behind only MJ and Mikan: http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._career_p.html). LeBron has actually shown the ability to raise his game in the postseason unlike many of his peers (Kobe, Carter, McGrady, etc.), which is not something that Peyton Manning has ever been able to do in the playoffs. This ridiculous, baseless narrative that he can't perform in the playoffs because he couldn't lead garbage Cavs teams to titles over far superior teams like the Spurs and Celtics is just that...ridiculous and baseless. Now that he led a team to a championship it's that he didn't hit or take enough shots late in games that the Heat ended up winning? Games that they ended up winning largely to his dominant play both offensively and defensively? It's ****ing absurd.

So basically we're talking about the difference of three shots between LeBron and MJ and a total of 15-20 over both careers. In essence, if he hits a few of them this April, he'll be right there with the supposed greatest of all time at game winning shots. Yeah, trying to take any meaning from this kind of sample size is exactly the problem.

Taking more shots in such situations doesn't make either Kobe or LeBron better players. In fact, the willingness of elite players to defer to others for open, higher percentage shots often gives teams a better chance to win than to have somebody like Kobe or LeBron take a low-percentage, pressured jump shot. And win the Heat did (which makes the criticism here especially odd). It's like watching a star and a team dominate on their way to a championship and then being upset at the end about the way he/they did it because they didn't fit your own personal mold of what a star and a team should look like. It's such bunk. Of course, attempting to ascribe any meaning from a sample size as small as seven shots is again a major problem with this hypothesis.

If grandstanding is defending LeBron's incredible 2012 postseason from your utter bullshit and these hilarious comparisons to the far inferior Kobe Bryant, then sure, I'll do that. There's far more to success in basketball than taking (and in Kobe's case, often missing) late game shots. Really, even bothering to engage in this nonsense gives more credence to your bullshit theory about LeBron than it deserves.

Somebody that isn't a butthurt Cavs fan with the ability to objectively watch, understand, and respect the game of basketball and one of its greatest players without blind hatred and criticism, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 9357647)

http://cdn.epicski.com/6/64/64e01b38...hurt%20361x358

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You're the one claiming that it was one of the best of all time. Of all time. That's a damn high standard.

I'm not just pulling that claim out of my ass like you've done here repeatedly to suggest that LeBron lacks clutchness or doesn't have some kind of instinct. The stats merely suggest it is. Only Tim Duncan has ever had a higher win share total in a postseason than LeBron did in 2012: http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._yearly_p.html And only thirteen times in the history of the game has a player ever had a PER in the postseason as high as LeBron did in 2012 (Jordan did it twice): http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._top_10_p.html If that isn't a historic level of dominance, I don't know what is.

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1. Stop posting his 4-quarter performance as if I haven't acknowledged his tremendous performance.

His overall dominance in leading the Heat to the championship (or in other words, his 4-quarter performances) is really the only thing that matters, not whether he took a few shots late in games, so I don't think I will.

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2. No. YOU are the one saying it's an insult, not me. When rating best playoff performances of all time... guess what, Peyton Manning doesn't fall anywhere on the list. Big Ben, Eli, Montana, Brady had a lot more underwhelming playoff runs that were capitalized by unbelievably clutch play when it counted.

I guess it's a good thing then that Peyton Manning was a pretty poor analogy for LeBron because LeBron has performed exceedingly well in the postseason (3rd all time in both PER and WS/48 behind MJ and Mikan).

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3. You are an unbelievable homer if you want to suggest LeBron is anywhere near the kind of closer MJ was. MJ was the best closer of all time. By a wide margin.

I haven't said anything about "closing" at any time. I'm only talking about how good a player he is and what he's accomplished in his career with a particular focus on the postseason.

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4. I am not saying Kobe is a better closer than LeBron. Given how insanely good LeBron is... he passes on the last shot WAY more often than he should.

I trust LeBron and his elite BB IQ to know when to pass on the last shot far more than some bitter former LeBron/current Cavs fan does.

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5. No, you're grandstanding. You're ranking last year as one of the best playoff performances of all time. Let's call it what it was.

It was one of the best playoff performances of all time by any real objective standard and statistic that is out there. He quite simply carried the Heat to a title over 20+ games with some of the most dominant games in NBA postseason history. If the stats didn't suggest it was, I wouldn't be saying it. But they do.

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6. I have been more than objective in my post. You are such a homer that you are painting his performance as practically perfect and the stuff of legends. You place that ridiculously high standard then battle back when somebody says it was anything less than perfect. Who's being unreasonable here?

I'm a Raptors fan. I have no reason to be a homer for LeBron. If anything, I shouldn't like him because he was instrumental in Bosh's move to Miami. But as any basketball fan should, I respect his incredible talent and accomplishments for what they are.