<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Watch for something to happen soon. Clowney very unhappy with his agent. He doesn’t think Bus Cook had a good enough plan. When he signs his tender he thinks he’s headed to Miami. They will have two franchise years to convince him to stay long term.</p>&mdash; John Granato (@johngranato) <a href="https://twitter.com/johngranato/status/1166386513564917760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Who does Hill torch?
OL doesn't need a high priced FA either.

kill Brady

This

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Unhappy with the state of talks about his future, Jadeveon Clowney recently fired his longtime agent, Bus Cook, sources tell me and <a href="https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@MikeGarafolo</a>. Clowney was originally expected to report to the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Texans?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Texans</a> this week, but has yet to sign his franchise tender.</p>&mdash; Tom Pelissero (@TomPelissero) <a href="https://twitter.com/TomPelissero/status/1166422715835789312?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's a cluster **** down there.

Lol I hope the Dolphins make this move so he doesn’t go to a contender

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Yes there has been a belief that Clowney would report this week. I heard rumblings there was friction and maybe both Clowney and Cook were not on the same page in terms of Clowney&#39;s future. Apparently there was enough to part ways at a very important time in Clowney&#39;s career. <a href="https://t.co/qolaGk5u18">https://t.co/qolaGk5u18</a></p>&mdash; James Palmer (@JamesPalmerTV) <a href="https://twitter.com/JamesPalmerTV/status/1166424951345139712?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Me too.

It's getting to the point where, if you were the Chiefs and the Texans would take a 3rd (I doubt they would) youd have to think about renting him for a year?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dolphins are very interested in trading for Jadeveon Clowney, according to league sources, but have to get him interested in going there. Prefers Seahawks, Eagles as potential destinations. Fluid situation because he has leverage as unsigned franchise player</p>&mdash; Aaron Wilson (@AaronWilson_NFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL/status/1166429244811042818?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Do it Howie.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Texans?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Texans</a> franchised pass-rusher Jadeveon Clowney has met in person with <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Dolphins?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Dolphins</a> coach Brian Flores and other members of the organization’s brass, sources say. There has been speculation that Miami is a possible landing spot.</p>&mdash; Ian Rapoport (@RapSheet) <a href="https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1166431819748782080?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This again where teams do stuff and are impatient.

The Dolphins are gonna suck, they should fire sale everything and load up on picks.

Now they're gonna trade for a guy that they can't resign, give up a high pick and lose him next year?

I'd get it if the Eagles do it. But the Phins, eh.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Texans did engage teams on Jadeveon Clowney some in the spring. The belief then, according to multiple clubs involved, was that he could be had for a second-round pick.</p>&mdash; Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) <a href="https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1166433461676249088?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

{facepalm}

Clark for a 1st and 2nd or Clowney for a 2nd?

Yeah, I'd take the latter every time.

I still think Veach is prone to target fixation and that's how he ends up overpaying for guys like Watkins, Mathieu (FA) and Clark (trade). It's why he felt the need to trade up for Speaks. He just gets too inflexible, IMO.

That’s a little unfair. This is a unique situation in that the Texans have totally ****ed up. They are an absolute mess right now and don’t even have a GM.

They’re going to end up giving a 3rd for ****ing Duke Johnson.

Could've at least used that to drive the trade compensation of Clark down a bit.

I would have probably rather had Clowney, but I think i'm gonna be happy with Clark.

I dunno that I'd have been as excited about giving Clowney the money Clark got.

Either isn't ideal I suppose.

I know I’d be a lot more concerned about injury or poor effort.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/TonyPauline?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@TonyPauline</a>: Texans head coach Bill O’Brien has been pushing a trade to Miami because of his relationship with Brian Flores. <br><br>However, Jadeveon Clowney doesn&#39;t want to go to Miami because he prefers to play for a contender.<br><br>Many more details below.<a href="https://t.co/GlsUVyU80h">https://t.co/GlsUVyU80h</a></p>&mdash; Pro Football Network (@PFN365) <a href="https://twitter.com/PFN365/status/1166436782570967040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Texans&#39; compensation requirements for Jadeveon Clowney are &#39;reasonable,&#39; per sources. Multiple agents are pursuing unsigned franchise player, ton of heavy hitters going after him. Nothing imminent for him picking new representation, though.</p>&mdash; Aaron Wilson (@AaronWilson_NFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL/status/1166437381148479488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Yeah, I think that's why they liked Clark so much.

They needed some dogs on defense. I dunno that Clowney is that.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Dolphins are not willing to include offensive tackle Laremy Tunsil in a prospective trade scenario involving Jadeveon Clowney, according to league sources. Texans need help at running back in addition to offensive tackle</p>&mdash; Aaron Wilson (@AaronWilson_NFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL/status/1166438163277131779?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 27, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Cam Erving, Carlos Hyde and a 4th. Done deal.

Cam Erving would be a net negative add

Do it Veach

Eh, probably so.

Send them something else.

(looks around) …..How about a shiny Byron Pringle?

But if that was the proposed compensation in the spring (per the Tweet) then it was still a time the Chiefs could've taken advantage of the discord.

It's not a one-off, is all I'm saying. He has several of these iffy sorts of deals on his register already. I mean that Clark trade/contract is such that he'd BETTER be a top 5 finisher for the DPOY. All the "man, Clark looks pretty good" stuff is kinda strange to me because we just traded for and paid the man as though he's nearly as good as Kalil Mack.

So if he goes out there and provides good run defense and 10-12 sacks, some people are going to say "hey, nice acquisition" whereas I see no way to call that anything but a failure. Brett Veach paid dearly for Frank Clark and if he's not a genuine difference maker, that's another L. Watkins is almost certainly an L; hard for him to do anything that will justify the $30+ million he's going to make in the 2 years of this deal. Hitchens isn't quite set in stone as an L yet because that's probably a 3 year deal with a reasonable possibility for 4 if he bounces back - there's time there.

And I'll ask the same thing I asked on Mathieu when we originally signed him - as much as I like the player, if Mathieu was seeking $10 million/season the year before after AZ cut him and had a solid but not eye opening season in Houston (he was essentially the same player he's always been), where the hell were the Chiefs in 2018 when he was available at $10 million/season and why was he suddenly worth $14 million in 2019? That's that target fixation at work again, IMO - when he wasn't on Veach's radar, he wasn't worth $10 million to this franchise. But once Veach decided he wanted Tyron Mathieu, plan B wasn't even a consideration and he was just going to pay what it took.

Some will applaud that - pick your guy and do what it takes to get him. Okay - but it had better work. It's what I said about Pioli way back when he was dumping over the roster, bringing in Patriot retreads and putting his eggs in the Matt Cassel basket. I thought it was foolish but acknowledged that if he's going to have that kind of tunnel vision - he'd better be right.

But counter argument, do you think he just went to those dollar amounts without having some reason to? I mean, I doubt he offered 4 million more to get Mathieu?

Didn't we hear they wanted him in 18? I dunno why they didn't get him, guessing it had to do with a safety they were planning on having back there that had some issues, but whatever on that.

I guess what i'm getting at is that those guys were all on the market (outside Clark) so they were having to negotiate against other teams, I'm guessing.

So my thing would be don't target guys that are out there like that and actually have a draft plan so you don't have to spend.

Clark was obtained for compensation equivalent to a late 1st round pick and a 4th round pick (same year).

Clark is the better passrusher which is more valuable.

I remember Clark tweeting that all he wanted was a bag and the sack record.

He's got the bag now. I wonder if he could actually have that monster year in terms of sacks. I mean, he won't beat the sack record but I don't know that 15-20 sacks is out of question.

I feel good about him.

The #49ers are releasing veteran LB Malcolm Smith, sources say. After two seasons with the Niners, he’ll be available to sign elsewhere immediately. Could be some interest for a team needing experience and depth

I don't think you're getting Clowney for a late 2nd. Think it would have taken a 1.

You can argue Clowney and keep the 2nd or Clark though.

49ers have signed WR Nick Williams to a one-year deal and to make room on the roster, the team has released LB Malcolm Smith

That's exactly what happened - he ended up in a bidding war with the Texans.

So after he passed on Mathieu in a soft-market in '18, he ended up stuck in a far more competitive market in '19 and just said "**** it, I'm getting him..."

It was a bed of his own making but he was so hell-bent on getting Mathieu that the Texans ended up price-enforcing him into a contract that is gonna look pretty iffy if Mathieu continues his career trend of ending up dinged and being less effective for big chunks of the season as he's nursing injuries.

He allowed his valuation of the player to be determined elsewhere. If the guy wasn't worth $10 million as a FA the year prior then it was only the need to pay him $14 million to pry him out of Texas that suddenly convinced Veach he was worth that much the following year.

That's not a viable long-term approach. That's cap hell waiting to happen and I'm pretty sure it's exactly what happened with Watkins and the Cowboys as well.

I think he needs to curb this tendency to get too locked in on a particular target. It's costing him at the bargaining table both in terms of trade compensation and cap space.

Well, yeah probably. But **** I like those guys so I'll just hope they're healthy and good as **** for the Chiefs.

He's gotten bailed out because of Mahomes on the cheap deal and what he did last year. He's made some good moves as well, but they need some draft picks to hit and help them keep the cap in order.

This jones/hill situation aint gonna solve itself either.

I didn’t want Sammy, but it’s hard to consider him an L after what he did when it truly mattered last year.

One could argue that he was well worth the investment based on his game against the Patriots. He was a focal point to getting us back in the game and damn near winning it. He got open and made some clutch catches to help bring us back in a game we should have won...ugh.

I did not like what Veach gave up for Clark, but anyone who has seen him knows he could be a key to this defense becoming respectable. I hate it when analyst say that Clark is a net loss or equal trade compared to Ford. Clark is one of the best rounded DE’s in football. He’s just genuinely good at everything and as seen last season, he’s capable of being an elite pass rusher.

I think Veach overspent bc he knew the time is now. He had extra resources and had to get a difference maker to get us over the top.

We can’t rely solely on a rookie 1st rd player this year after losing Ford and Houston.

That's what Dj is saying though in regards to Clark, with what they gave up and paid him, you don't need him to be capable of being elite.

You need a legit DPOY guy wrecking souls.

I think he can do that though, and I also think our calculus on contracts and such is a little off because of having a rookie QB deal, but once that changes it'll get tough.

Clark is a better overall player than Clowney, Im happy with Clark. No on Clowney.
Clark is a dog in every sense, Practice, Game time, locker room, health wise.

Clowney is known for not practicing hard, being hurt all the time, taking plays off.

I disagree. I’ll just leave it at that.

The cost to move up 8 spots in the 3rd was roughly the value of a late 4th round pick. So the Chiefs gave up a 1st rounder and a 3rd rounder (in real value) for Clark and a 4th rounder.

That's a fair amount more than a 2nd round pick. I mean you just crunch the numbers on the hallowed 'draft pick chart' and you're effectively talking about roughly the 22nd overall pick when you start setting everything off.

Again - that's quite a bit more valuable than a 2nd round pick. Somewhere around twice as valuable depending on where everything may ultimately shake out.

And it's just awfully difficult to say that Clark is worth twice the trade compensation as Clowney, is it not? Especially when both guys are looking at similar contract demands.

And again - I'm not saying this deal can't work out. I'm just saying that I think some folks are moving that bar pretty low, pretty fast. If I'm betting, I'd say that Clark goes out there and plays well. But probably more akin to Tamba Hali than prime Justin Houston (and that's acknowledging that Hali was underrated). And after giving up what we gave up and paying him as one of the top 5 defensive players in football, I'd like to think expecting something near a Peak Justin Houston impact isn't unreasonable. Hali's deal was worth about 11% of the cap over his peak years and Houston's worth around 12%. Clark will fall around 12% as well. That extra 1% is significant in a $180-$200 million cap era. And while peak Hali was a very good player - I think giving up what we gave up in terms of pick compensation and cap space for something less than Prime Houston when we're paying roughly similar to what we paid for Houston in that era has to be seen as a disappointment even though it isn't a disaster.

I'm just saying that the guy needs to be !@#$ing good to make that contract and that trade make sense. This isn't Okafor here - this guy is the centerpiece to a defensive rebuild and he needs to have a friggen monster year to justify this. The Chiefs gave up a lot.

Absolutely, man.

I'm not trying to shit on these players. I really like Mathieu and have been damn impressed by the attitude Clark seems to be bringing. I like these guys and I hope they !@#$ing bring it.

But I think it's important to keep both eyes open here and note that there's real risk that this backfires in a big way on Veach. There were other ways this all could've been done and that cannot be forgotten.

I disagree. The Bears got Khalil Mack for roughly the equivalent of 2 1st round picks and I don't think they are disappointed at all with that trade right now. He is the definition of a "legit DPOY guy wrecking soul".

The Chiefs paid in comparison a very late 1st round pick plus the equivalent of a 4th round pick (same year) for Clark.

If he gets you 10-14 sacks a year plus good run defense you cannot really say it's a bad trade.

One shouldn't be expecting him to be Khalil Mack out there.

We don’t need a legit DPOY. We need a well rounded player who can produce when it matters. Double-digit sacks, a great run defender and leader is enough.

I keep looking at this defense and thinking it will look like the Colts last season, but with a far better pass rush. Colts took a bunch of solid free agents+ a good rookie and made it work due to scheme.

If Jones run defense looks like as excellent as it has so far this preseason, a part of that is from Frank.

I think we have a chance to be a rock solid defense by mid season.

I think Clark is a better presence and maybe even a better addition to a team that needed an infusion of attitude on that side of the ball.

But I don't think he's a better overall 'player' in a strictly on the field sense. Clowney is !@#$ing good guys. To me he's pretty much the prototype for a 4-3 under SDE.

Y'all are really underrating Clowney. He's a genuinely elite run defender; one of the best in the business. As much as people are lauding Clark as a run defender, historically Clowney has been better. And he's a very good pass rusher to boot. Watch the tape - he oftentimes draws attention away from JJ Watt. That tells you what opponents think of his ability to get to the passer - they'd rather take their chances on JJ. Like Clark, he can bounce inside but I think he's a little more dynamic inside than Clark.

Taking attitude and health issues out of the discussion (which I know isn't fair or appropriate but I'm discussing the idea that Clark is a more rounded player specifically), Jadaveon Clowney is a better football player than Frank Clark.

The Chiefs can argue that they see the ability to get more from Clark than the Seahawks got from him, but betting on the come on a deal of this magnitude is damn risky, especially when Carroll isn't some mouthbreather that doesn't know how to get performance from his defenders.

And I just don't think it is when you've given up a 1st and a 3rd for a player and made him one of the 5 highest paid defensive players in the league.

Run defense and a solid pass rush is fine...maybe...if you're giving up a lot in trade OR in cap. But when you're giving up both, you'd better get a monster for your troubles. You could give up less cap and no pick compensation and have gotten a guy like you're describing in Trey Flowers.

But when you're giving up more cap AND a pick haul, solid sack figures and strong run defense isn't good enough.

Clowney is not better than Clark.

Clark has 6 more sacks and one less season.

Nor does Clark come with the injury history or questionable effort that Clowney had to shake at the start of his career.

The Seahawks and Pete Carroll took that pick and selected LJ ****ing Collier. That teams personnel department has been a mess lately.

I remember reading this PFF article in the offseason:

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-buyings...ushers-in-2018


I know it’s PFF, but I thought it was spot on then and still do.

Bonus for laughs:

But if you're going to use PFF don't you have to acknowledge that Clowney smoked Clark across the board last season? (Hell, shouldn't PFF be acknowledging that in their own buy/sell rankings?)

OVR:
Clowney -- 88
Clark -- 77.4

Pass Rush:
Clowney -- 78.8
Clark -- 74.7

Run:
Clowney -- 91.2 (dayum)
Clark -- 69.1

I don't see PFF as dispositive but you're the one mentioning them here and it's a landslide for Clowney in 2018.

And everyone wants to talk about Clark as this ascending player because he's only 26 and has room to grow....Clowney is only 26 and has room to grow. Oh, and is coming off a year where he was almost certainly superior to Clark across the board. At 26 he's being written off as some slack-ass broke-dick but he just had a career year and is entering his prime. He's missed 3 games in the last 3 years. The dude's playing incredibly well and people still want to harp on his first 2 years?

No, I don't think Clark's a better player. I think for his career he's been more durable (though it's been a wash over the last 3) and a tick more consistent (though we're ignoring his time primarily a 3rd down player his first couple of years), but in terms of pure talent I think Clowney is far superior.

I think the easiest way to distinguish the two is ceiling vs. floor. Clark has a higher floor - Clowney has a MUCH higher ceiling. I think it's awfully odd to pay what we paid for a guy on the basis of his floor and the belief that maaaaaaybe we can unlock more from the guy when a coach that has been to 2 SBs largely on the strength of his defenses didn't.

What was the alternative here? It sure doesn’t sound like there were options for a team entering an “all in” season.

{Re-reads the last hour worth of posts}

I'm...uh...pretty sure the impetus behind this entire discussion is the availability of a potential alternative...

Clowney and Clark have both played in 62 games. Clowney has 55 starts, while Clark has started in 33.

Clowney has never even had a double digit sack season. He’s not an elite pass rusher.

The most important part of that article was this:

Clowney has not rushed the passer at an elite level. His 78.8 pass-rushing grade this past season was the highest of his career. While that was a career high, the uptick in his production hasn’t necessarily come from development as a pass-rusher. The Texans have simply gotten more creative and given him more opportunities to rush inside, where he was actually more productive than outside.

Clark is the better player and will be the better player going forward. Sorry, but you’re wrong.

The risk with Clowney is so much more than Clark. It’s just really bad. Clowney brings us back to Dee Ford territory.

Meniscus tear, arthroscopic knee surgery in 2016 and 2017. He’s missing time periodically and that’s not good for a player making that much.

Frank Clark has missed 2 career games in 4 years. That needs to be noted here. He’s been very reliable to this point.

And more productive in the same amount of games with fewer starts. That’s really all that needs to be said.

Clowney fired his agent today.

I’ll be honest: Clowney’s knees scare me. He’s entering his prime with 3 knee surgeries, one of them major. Arthroscopic knee surgery tells me he’s having joint problems. At 26, he isn’t going to magically get better.

He’s eroding and with more age, he’ll likely miss time.

He also had Whitney Mercilus and JJ Watt playing next to him and he can’t have a strong season sack wise like Dee Ford or Frank Clark?

That just seems like an awful amount of risk for that much money. Give me the guy with good health, strong leader, strong run defender and 32 sacks in 3 years starting.

And Clark had a 74.7 grade as a pass rusher last season and you're anointing him a premier rusher for some reason.

Why is a season where Clark was a worse rusher than Clowney somehow evidence for your position that Clark is...uh...a better rusher than Clowney. He most assuredly wasn't last season by your chosen metric. And I've not said Clowney is an elite rusher - only that he's a pretty good one (I said he was an elite run defender).

I mean you can either scrap PFF as a source altogether or acknowledge that Clark has NOT been a better pass-rusher for his career than Clowney has been by their grading. If you want to use PFF, you can't just site a blurb (that lacks internal consistency between the two players) - you have to also acknowledge that for literally every year the two players have been in the league, PFF has graded Clowney higher and SIGNIFICANTLY higher in 3 of those 4.

I'm not sure how you can keep hanging your hat on PFF when in the best year of his 4 year career he was barely better than the worst year of Clowney's over that same period. Or when his best season has never come within 2 points of Clowney's average.

PFF isn't your friend here - they do far more damage to your claim than just citing raw sack figures (though I assume you recognize the folly of using sacks as dispositive of impact).

Dude, ignore the ****ing grade. I’m talking about the fact that the Texans had to move him around to get a whopping 9 sacks.

Clark is the better pass rusher because he’s been more productive. And because I’ve watched them both and can see it. It’s really simple.

I think that's the biggest issue I had with Clowney and why I'm really not bothered they went for Clark instead.

Mario Addison has had more sacks over the last 4 years than Clark in fewer games.

No - that's really not all that needs be said. At all.

Yea because you’re including Clark’s rookie year.

They both played in 62 games. Clowney and Clark’s career comparison is fair, that’s not.

And I was talking about the injury stuff combined with that when I said it was all that needed to be said.

More reliable, and more productive. Yes, all that needs to be said. You’re wrong buddy. I know you Arne incapable of admitting it, but it doesn’t change it.

So you're going to cite PFF except for when they don't say what you want them to and then insist you ignore that they actually considered Clowney a far superior player every year of their respective careers?

That seems...reasonable.

And part of the reason people are so big on Clark is because the Seahawks moved him around. Suddenly you're seizing on Clowney's versatility as a negative? That's especially odd seeing as I specifically noted Clowney's ability to be more dynamic than Clark inside as a positive for him.

I'm not shitting on Clark. I'm not saying he's a bad player - I've said he's probably a very good one and would be elated if he's a great one. I'm not even saying he may not be a better pure rusher than Clowney (at least I'm pretty sure I haven't said that; I'm largely undecided there). I'm saying that Clowney is at least a comparable player, the idea that Clark is more 'well rounded' isn't supported by...anything really, and that by paying roughly twice as much in trade for Clark as Clowney may have been available for, we overpaid.

And more than anything I'm just really intrigued by how low people can push the bar for what constitutes a successful transaction here before all is said and done.

I mean if he goes out there and is just a slightly better version of Duane Clemons, just how much are we gonna have to exaggerate his run defense to put a feather in Veach's cap?

I was simply highlighting their objective conclusion that he was more productive inside than out, and the Texans had to utilize him there to get the most out of him, which still wasn’t quite double digits.

Their grades are subjective, so yes it is reasonable.

Clark has 6 more sacks in the same amount of games playing with less talent around him (pass rusher wise). I don’t see why that’s so hard to acknowledge. He’s easily the better pass rusher if you’ve watched. I’m just throwing the stats out to support it.

So you agree with their reasoning, as long as it's to your liking?

The part about his production inside vs. outside is objective. It doesn’t matter whether it’s PFF or whoever saying it, that’s a fact.

Their grades are not the same thing.

Do you get that? Or do I have to repeat it for third time?

It's all being viewed and published through their eyes, which you call a trash source.

Do you know the difference between objective and subjective?

But is the element of subjectivity at least partially (if not totally) offset by the fact that their grades take into account far more than raw sack totals which we know can be misleading?

You're attempting to dismiss a holistic grade a subjective and thus not worthy of consideration while holding up a raw figure that tells only part of the story as completely unassailable.

That's clearly drawing a conclusion and then arguing from the conclusion rather than engaging in a reasoned debate. Especially when you say "I know, I've seen it" and act ads though your clearly subjective opinion is entitled weight while PFFs is not.

Certainly. Do you know what waffling means?

Except for when he borrows their analysis...

Jesus ****ing Christ. They're BOTH good players. There. Debate settled.

I’m talking about production, not PFF grades. It’s simple, but you keep trying to make it seem like it’s more than it is or catch me me being hypocritical.

Clark is more reliable and more productive. That was my point from the beginning. He’s the better player. Period.

I’m not waffling. I’ve been very clear about it, but you’re choosing to ignore what I’m saying and playing stupid.

I posted a PFF article because it made a good point about his production inside vs. out (along with the injury stuff), which is objective. It could’ve been from anywhere and it’s no more/less true. That doesn’t mean I’m contradicting myself by choosing to ignore their subjective grading system.

Who the **** cares. We got an elite pass rusher that can defend the run.

There aren't even any stats showing how more productive he was outside vs. in. You say they wrote those words and took them to heart, but when DJ posted numbers you lost your goddamn mind LMAO

They're both good pass-rushers and who gives a flying **** if it's inside or out?

So all these ****ing pages of back and forth and arguing and I still don't see one single Goddamn trade! WTF???

Romper Room this shit thread

Umm yes there are. Sacks/pressures inside vs. out. Just because they aren’t in the article doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

And no, I didn’t “take them to heart”. It was something I already knew to be true and have seen for myself and heard from places other than PFF. Have you ever watched Clowney? Were you unaware of this?

There you go again.

You can make a fair argument for better rusher. Probably.

There is NO argument for better player. Period.

You have to just completely reject reality and substitute your own to disregard Clowney being a superior run defender. He just is - dudes a monster against the run and for a fanbase holding out Clark's generally above average run defense as elite because he's not Dee Ford, it sure is odd to see Clowney's demonstrable superiority there being hand-waived...

Frank Clark looks better in tights.

/thread