The way I see it, they have to implement it by late July of next year or they will see some serious blowback from education purchasers moving on to better and cheaper Android tablets.

Something else people fail to consider...

Why would a consumer buy an iPad instead of a Nexus 10 (or similar) when they already have an Android phone? The answer is ... in most cases, they wouldn't.

Last quarter, Android topped 75% market share of all smartphones sold... Apple fell below 15%. That may be a serious problem for Apple's future.

On a related note... Windows 8 will probably work in the exact opposite direction. The Windows 8 tablets will make some headway (especially in the corporate world) and drive sales of Windows 8 phones.

Ehh, maybe. The Nokia devices are solid, but the others are pretty Meh, IMO. HTC's new W8 phone w/ Beats Audio may be okay; need to check it out.

I think you overestimate the adaptation timeframe for education (and many institutions). You're not talking about a massive switch. It's always going to be a slow paradigm shift. I'm not convinced that, from a detached evolutionary perspective, Apple won't end up in the tablet/phone market in the same place it's ended up in the PC market. I just don't see it happening in the NEAR (next couple of years) future, which is where I part with Apple haters and Droid enthusiasts.

apple is without Jobs...again. Last time that happened...

just sayin'. ;)

No doubt, and they appear to be making even more missteps since his death.

that's exactly what I have been saying..

And just to be clear... Apple is already there NOW with phones. Their natural market share is in the 10-17% range. That is where they are with Macs and iPhones and iPads are quickly approaching that. (depends on how you count tablets.. if you ignore white label or not.. even if you leave off the shadow market, Apple has now slipped below 50% from 70% a year ago .. no way they aren't below 30% next year)

I agree that execs are making the decisions.

I disagree with almost all of your reasons why.

The number 1 reason to choose Windows? I already have so much of an install base I CAN'T change even if I wanted to. Organizations, especially in this economy, don't want risk and change is risk.

The hardware base is broader and the hardware costs initially are lower. However, your assertions on TCO and ROI are debatable AT BEST.

The simple fact is that further Microsoft purchases leverage the existing install base and no exec ever got fired giving business to Microsoft.

I work for a large consultant and my customer is top 5 financial institution.

I can say 100% without any doubt that your comment is NOT off base.

The above is absolutely spot-on.

Check Alinean. The numbers tell the story.

Too often people mix their personal preferences into these discussions. Perception is NOT reality; it is perception. An objective, broad view of the landscape indicates that ROI is higher, and TCO is lower. The factors that you indicate as the reason are variables in the calcs, to be certain, but they are not the sole variable.

Licensing alone often prevents Microsoft from having the best ROI or TCO.

To make a blanket statement that Microsoft's solution has the best ROI and/or TCO is dubious at best and at worst, outright false. You can't talk in such broad generalities.

There's also the fact that Microsoft has purposefully made 3rd-party solutions more expensive in the foundation (see Citrix).

Shame...

So many of the really good games come out on all platforms. The only game I've played on PC recently that I couldn't get on console was Rome Total War.

And you have to admit, tuning a PC can sometimes be a real bitch.

Skyrim is so much better on PC, plus all those mods.... ;)

There's no way it could be "so much" much better on any platform. It's a 99/100 already on PS3. Slightly better graphics aren't a selling point at all.

And I will be lucky to finish the base game in less than a year. Mods have zero appeal.

Zero? really? I guess different strokes for different folks but more choices is always better for me. I hate being pidgeonholed into playing a certain way and that is why i hate consoles.

So do you even play the original game no mods? Or do you read up and dive right in to what you think the best mods are?

The only mods I've ever played religiously were for total conversions for Total War and Starfleet Command and then only because they changed the time periods (and thus the unit sets) for the game.

I can't imagine playing any mod for Skyrim that would be that much better than the original.

I usually play the game in it's original state first. There are quite a few Mods that add to the gaming experience.

This list is updated quite a bit and there are many different variants all over the net but some of the mods ARE better than vanilla. I will add that I LOVE the flying airship, it's breathtaking. Quite a few mods end up as full games, like Killing floor.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/28/th...skyrim-mods-2/

Here is a link to the premier modding site(other than the steam workshop)

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/

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Yeah, that's just something I don't have time for. I don't have the gaming time or the wherewithal. I like sitting down, turning on a controller, and spending a couple hours playing a game.

I just don't have the cycles for PC gaming anymore.

I understand but you could literally play for 4 or 5 years in just Skyrim with all the awesome mods. The game is simply breathtaking and just fun to walk around in without even doing quests.

I play individual games for a long time but even I can't play a game for THAT long. I'd get bored with the premise after a bit. I tend to wear out individual games and I never spend time on more than 1 game at a time, but I also don't usually play the same genre back-to-back. Once I finish Skyrim, I'll probably go to NCAA 2013. I played Fable 2 for months, then Fight Night Champion, then Amalur.

Let's put it this way - I've played Fable 2, Amalur, and similar games for hundreds of hours on XBox and have NEVER downloaded DLC for those games. When I'm done, I'm done.

Fair enough.

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Want an Ipad mini cause i dont have an ipad but have android phone. Seems still too pricy $315 for 16gb. be nice if the price was a bit lower.

This sums up Apple perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyWSEwKPo8s :D

Ok, now THIS is what I was talking about!!

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33198_7...nd-nook-color/

Nook Color (2 year old 7" tablet) is now selling for $139 - slap Jelly Bean on it and that's not a bad deal.

They also have the 1 year old Nook Tablet with 1 gb ram selling for $179 (not such a great deal when you can get the Nexus 7 or Nook HD for only $20 more)

We aren't there yet but we are quickly approaching the price point where tablets will really start to fly off the shelves.

Tablets aren't flying of the shelves now? How many tens of millions more need to sell before they reach that classification?

I bought a 10" 32gb Asus Transformer tf300 for $399 in April. I love it. Comes with a microSD slot. It's still sells for around $350-370 brand new but will probably drop a bit more closer to Conspicuous Consumption Day.

When I went to purchase my tablet I went to pick up the Ipad 2 that had just dropped in price. I compared the two and went with Android because the hardware specs were so much better.

I don't have a lot of money so I tend to buy for value more than name or popularity.

I don't get buying devices like this primarily on hardware specs. For me it's much more about the software.

I did play with a 10.1 note the other night...pretty cool stuff if you're into the Google/Android ecosystem.

The Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 kicks so much ass. The s-pen is a godsend for people who want affordable digital ink.

Well it wasn't simply the hardware specs.The SD card slot, the 16gb of additional storage which when adding a $25 32gb micro SD card gave me a total of 64 GB of storage for around $430. The 64gb Ipad 2 was running around $700 IIRC. Plus the update and hack ability of Android made it a much better deal. I've been using Android since the first week the TMO G1 came out.

I bought a decent Android tablet last year and dabbled with it but It honestly didn't get much use. I play with my Vita more than the tablet, it just didn't appeal much to me.

I guess I don't understand that. You can always change the software, but the hardware is pretty much set in stone.

I don't either, in a proprietary piece of equipment you want the most powerful hardware you can get. You can always change the software but in order to improve the hardware you have to replace the entire unit.

That's not what I mean. I can see hardware coming into play when comparing within a category, but if you're comparing across platforms it makes less sense.

It will probably become harder to compare ARM tablets over time this way since it appears that Apple is starting to do more custom work than many of the others.

Ah. Well, yes. Aside from storage, comparing specs across platforms is a bit suspect since the different OS's perform differently. I agree with you there.

On a tablet? Not really. Most have plenty of proprietary issues that make changing software quite hard. Depends on the manufacturer quite a bit as well.

I have no fewer than 25 ROMs to choose from for my tablet that would work just fine. Guess it depends on what you consider to be "quite hard."

ASUS, Google offer monetary compenstation for Nexus 7 tablets bought before price drop

By Joe Pollicino http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.en...writer_rss.gif posted Nov 9th 2012 4:47PM

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget..../11/18-pm.jpeg

Bought yourself a shiny new Nexus 7 before just before the priced dropped on October 29th and feel a bit slighted? ASUS and Google want to turn your frown upside down, each offering their own compensation. Folks in Europe who purchased any variant of the tablet from ASUS prior to October 30th are eligible to a redeem a 25-pound or 30-euro coupon for its online shop. Apparently, the deal has been in place since October 30th, and you'll have until the 30th of this month to submit your proof of purchase (from sanctioned dealers, naturally) and apply. Sure, it may not be as nice as a Google Play credit for apps or cash in-pocket, but at least ASUS is showing it can share at least some love for early adopters. Europeans should move their cursors over to the ASUS source link below for all the details.
Tracking back to Google, Droid-Life notes that Google's price protection policy might have you covered for some cash-back, as well. If you purchased the 16GB model from Google Play between the 14th and the 29th of October, you have until about the 13th of this month to get a refund for the price difference (15 days from the initial price drop). As always, check out the Google link below for more details.

Fair enough. I guess I don't really consider that changing the software. How many of those 25 ROMS are nothing more than minor modifications to the stock ROM or AOSP?

Maybe I don't understand what you're getting at. What types of software changes are you referring to if you're not talking about different ROMs and apps?

Kind of curious about the Nook Color deal for my kids. Has anyone installed the ICS or JB ROM on this? HOw well does it perform?

Regardless of your platform of choice, I can honestly say that after using an iPad Mini for a week, I'm starting to think that the 7-8" size range is quite possibly the ideal size for tablets. At least for when it comes to content consumption.

I stopped by the apple store this morning and checked it out. I would agree.

I think my next iPad may be this size but with a retina display. I've got a 27" iMac with 32GB of RAM and a fusion drive to take care of first though.

A buddy and I stopped at B&N last night to look at Nooks for his dad. We were looking at their newest models, and they were just odd. The touch interface did not perform well. You could try swiping or tapping and many times the device did not act accordingly. It could be that changing the OS would help, but it was bizarre.

I'm not referring to the new ones. Just the Nook Color that is being clearanced. This is just for a kid.

Yeah, that's why I noted it was the new one. I just happened to have that experience last night and thought I would note it.

<header id="article-header" class="photo instapaper_ignore " style="display: block; border-bottom-style: none; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; width: 321.20001220703125px; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 27.493331909179688px; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat no-repeat;">Surface Pro's $899 Price Tag Aimed At Businesses, Not You
Mark Hachman yesterdayhttp://readwrite.com/files/styles/80..._surface_1.png
</header><section id="article-content" class="instapaper_body" style="display: block; margin-bottom: 0px; zoom: 1; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 27.493331909179688px; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> Microsoft has priced its Surface Pro Windows 8 tablet, due in January, at about the same level as an ultrabook - only without that pesky keyboard.

In a blog post, Microsoft Surface chief Panos Panay revealed the price: $899 for a Surface Pro with Windows 8 and 64GB of flash storage, and $999 for the 128GB version. That's consistent with what Microsoft indicated at the Surface launch this past summer: that the Surface RT would be priced on par with rival tablets, and that the Surface Pro, which includes an Intel Core processor like the ones used by the majority of PCs and uses a standard version of the Windows 8 operating system, would be priced comparably with an ultrabook.
There's a minor gotcha, though: While each Surface Pro version will include the new Surface Pen stylus, they won't include either a Touch Cover or Type Cover, meaning that users will have to shell out an additional $119 for the Touch Cover or $129 for the Type Cover with the more fully-formed keyboard. Users can also buy (or may already own) a third-party Bluetooth keyboard.

For reference, the Microsoft Surface RTwith 32GB of storage without a cover was priced at $499, while adding a Touch Cover bumped it to $599. The 64GB version of the Windows RT Surface, with a black Touch Cover, is $699. That was slightly less the Apple iPad with the Retina Display, which costs $499 for a 16GB version, and $599 for a 32GB model. Both cost more than a number of Android tablets, however.

Surface Pro Is A Keyboard-Less Ultrabook

But when you think about the Surface Pro, you need to think about ultrabooks as much as tablets. From a specifications perspective, the Surface Pro compares well to a notebook: It has a Intel Core i5 processor, which gives a graphics boost to the Surface Pro's 10.6-inch, 16:9 ClearType touchscreen running at 1920 x 1080 resolution. It also includes a Mini DisplayPort to drive an external display up to 2560 x 1440 resolution, plus Bluetooth and a full-size USB 3.0 port.
Oddly enough, the Swedish site Webhallen took a lot of heat earlier this year forpublishing what it thought would be the expected price of the Surface Pro: just over $800, with other models priced significantly higher. And you know - it turns out they were right on the money.
"It’s clear with the Surface Pro pricing Microsoft is targeting notebooks, not tablets," Patrick Moorhead, principal analyst with Moor Insights, said in an email to ReadWrite. "Very few people will pay $899 for a tablet but they will for a notebook. The Surface Pro with the Type Cover makes a very nice compact and light solution."

"I’ve given up on having Surface RT compete with an iPad," Moorhead added. "To do that, it would need to be priced at $699. But it isn’t. Therefore, I am looking at it through the new lens of a notebook. Microsoft won’t sell nearly as many at $899 as they would at $699, and overall, they won’t sell many."

That means that our earlier analysis is still in play. Sarah Rotman Epps, a consumer and mobile analyst for Forrester Research, said in July that Microsoft could be worried about competing with its manufacturing partners like Asus or Dell. One way to avoid that problem, she said, would be to price the Surface high enough to avoid direct competition.
“Keeping the price point of the Surface high limits the threat to Microsoft’s OEM [original equipment manufacturing] partners,” Rotman Epps said. “At a $1,000 price point, this won’t be a mass market product, but it will still have the desired effect of exciting consumers and inspiring OEMs to do more with hardware design for Windows 8.”

The Case For The Surface Pro

Earlier this year, I made the case for the Surface Pro as the ultimate business tablet. The Surface Pro has little competition in that arena. The iPad is being used in some corporate environments, but what pressure both might have felt from specifically business-oriented products like the Cisco Cius and RIM PlayBook have largely evaporated.

While I didn't know the price at the time, that's largely immaterial: Once you start aligning a product with corporate budgets, products begin to be measured less on price than on feature sets, especially as the value of the employee using it increases. The included digitizer pen will also satisfy content creators and other creative types; the tablet includes a "Palm Block" technology that will allow users to rest their hands on the tablet.

The most important aspect of the Surface Pro is its ability to run Windows; my recenttrip to Dubai to explore Windows 8 applications revealed that yes, companies are developing apps for Windows 8, and some are using Windows RT. But it simply costs less to develop an app for one Windows platform, especially where legacy, Windows 7-era apps are involved.

The question, of course, is whether or not Microsoft truly wants to sell its own tablets, clear out space for its hardware partners or essentialy offer another premioum service in the vein of the Microsoft Signature experience, where the company will sell you a notebook free of the third-party bloatware that hardware partners often load.

NPD released some unsettling news on Thursday: Third-party Windows 8 tablets are virtually non-existent at 1% of all retail sales from mid-October to mid-November, and Windows device sales are down 21% overall from a year ago (see Is Windows 8 Winning? Microsoft Say Yes; Data Say No). A super-expensive Surface Pro won't help those numbers. But if companies are looking for a Windows 8 tablet for professional use, the Surface Pro will still likely be their number one choice.
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I made the trek to the Microsoft store yesterday and spent some time with the Surface. Random thoughts and observations below.

- More employees at the Microsoft store than shoppers and I didn't see anyone walk out of the store with something they purchased.
- I had no less than four people attack me when I came in asking if I needed help.
- While I messed around with the low-end keyboard cover I listened to an employee talk to some potential buyers. They were asked at one point how someone would get stuff onto the surface and the guy said "you put everything into your Skydrive account" as if they should know what that was. When they were getting ready to leave he aggressively said "are you considering an iPad?" They responded that they were and he says "The thing about the Surface is that you're not limited by anything. The iPad is for entertainment only so if you want to do anything like work or writing then you should get a Surface."

They looked at him with a very puzzled look and walked out.

- I asked to see the other keyboard and the same guy directed me to a station with one and told me to open Word. That's a pet peeve of mine since I hate Word with the power of a thousand suns.

- The Surface doesn't come with FDE (full disc encryption) enabled by default. That's a big oversight if you ask me for a device like this.

- At setup, the first user is an administrator.

- The RT version doesn't have most of the other Windows 8 Intel stuff removed. Lots of references in the registry to Intel drivers and such.

- I asked about putting it into disc mode, as I'm interested in what it would take to pull an image of one. The tech said he didn't know and after I told him why I was interested he told me that the RT tablets have been a real problem for them. Since x86 code won't execute, none of their internal support tools work. That means that if someone comes in with a problem tablet, they just swap it out.

It's easy to poke fun at that, only to have any number of folks on here point out that this is what happens with a borked iPad. The difference, though, is that this is much more local storage centric. I'm sure that one of the coached selling points is that Windows should make it more serviceable, when at this point it's really not.

- The low end keyboard isn't all that great. I'd put it on par with typing on the screen.

- The high end keyboard was nicer, but not nearly as good of an experience as using my Apple Bluetooth keyboard with my iPad.

- To get a feel for it, I wrote out a couple simple HTML pages the old fashioned way. In Notepad. I bring this up since tons power users (not muggles who think Word is the only way to type a document) would want a real editor like Sublime, UltraEdit or Notepad++. Of course none of that should be expected to work on the RT version...and those developers would have to develop Metro versions. That seems like something outside the scope of what the developers I just listed would want to do. If anyone would, it would be Sublime because it's all new code and cross platform but the Metro UI restrictions would make it tough for them to do so efficiently.

- If you're using it as a laptop replacement and plan on using the touch cover a lot, I hope you're the right height. The angle at which the Surface sits with the kickstand obviously is not adjustable from what I could see.

- Since I was Christmas shopping I didn't have my notes on the Registry changes in Win8 with me so I can't speak to the new artifacts that have been created in there for the Metro style apps.

Overall I think it's a neat little piece of hardware, but it still falls into a gap without a market.

And in regards to the Surface Pro, by the way, that would cost as much as an 11" MacBook Air. The Verge seems to think that it's the best ultrabook to use if you're running Windows.

Yeah, RT doesn't appeal to me in any way... for MS in the tablet space it's all about Pro.. which is looking more and more to be priced too high for most consumers and aimed solely at corporate customers.

This doesn't really fit in this thread but it's not worth it's own thread...

Ray Kurzweil has just been hired by Google! Pretty exciting stuff.

Microsoft has done everything wrong that they could do. I bet within the next 5-10 years xbox will become their most valuable asset. Look at all the money they're throwing at Google in advertising and anti-trust. They know they're ****ed.

It does appear that they're targeting the corporate space.

However, they're so late to the game. There's already a large Apple installed base.

Well the rumors are heating up about the mythical $99 tablet(that is not a piece of crap)! I honestly think we'll see both of these released in the next quarter as $150 tablets.. which is still a fantastic price point. Expect to see announcements at CES in 2 weeks.

"$99" ASUS
http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/12...t-images-leak/

"$99" Acer
http://www.tgdaily.com/mobility-feat...android-tablet

The funny part is that both sets of leaked specs are being reviews as "lower end" or "value" not cutting edge like the Nexus line currently is... of course if you look at them and compare them with the iPad mini.. they are on the same level as that overpriced piece of crap.

Android seems to be getting more and more buggy and annoying with every update.

Jelly Bean didn't do squat as far as i can tell.


i still can even have full internet browsing

Really? what device(s)? I have had the opposite results, especially with Internet.

Also, JellyBean 4.2 is the update that matters (for tablets) .. it's the one that let's you set different user profiles, which is badass and honestly is the single best feature any tablet can have at the moment. Every new tablet coming out will soon have this feature except Apple...

The mini is a piece of crap?

Well not really, it's a middle of the road tablet specs-wise(maybe lower because of the shitty screen) but it is CRAZY overpriced.

I also think the 4:3 aspect ratio is stupid but that's a preference thing so I won't judge it on that.

Transformer Infinity or should i call it Crash Infinity


'unfortunately the Asus Task Manager has stopped working ... '

I'll bet the specs on that Transformer Infinity are awesome though. Keep that in mind when it crashes, since that's one of the reasons it's better than any iOS device.

shut up, fanboi

I have a Surface Pro. Got it the first day released, but wanted to spend some time with it before commenting. Basically, the intent behind it is a miracle, and the product is a solid delivery. The machine is great, fast, everything I wanted, and unfortunately a bit heavy. The Windows 8 experience is actually kind of cool. The metro view is responsive and easy to configure, and the switch to and from desktop is easy. The biggest issue I'd see for most people is the battery power. With power saving measures, I can get 6 hours out of it. If I wanted to play games, I would be very frustrated with the 3-4 hours from the couple of free games I tried (more correctly, I let a kid try- I don't really play games.)

The pen is fantastic, I use it for way more than drawing. That is probably the most surprising bonus, and I really hope I don't lose the pen, the connector is lame when the machine is in my bag, never holds it. Storage was never an issue for me as I regularly move data to and from devices and my 2TB drive so I was prepared for the transient nature of my data now. The display is good, but expect the next version will be even better. Still, I work on high res images and it is capable, and for my truly color accurate needs, it drives my HP monitor quite nicely.

The sum total is that I really love it. I was clinging to a 6 yr old vaio umpc, and an 8 yr old G5 in my home office waiting for something that was a full computer in a flexible tablet form. It is almost that, and for the few disappointments (weight and battery,) there is an equal or better benefit that I hadn't considered a must have, but now can't live without (the pen and the type keyboard.)

I am definitely an early adopter of stuff, so I have a bit more bandwidth for beta. This is way better than beta, but I think a few modifications could make the next version a huge hit.