I thought it was obvious but that conversation was a little bit more than just typical coach speak.

I still think Bolton is going to be the MLB going forward but you have to wonder.

I honestly don’t think it means anything at all. It’s a position coach, and a new one at that.

I’d imagine part of it is also letting Hitchens know he’s valued and appreciated despite drafting LB’s in back to back years, one of which seems to be his future replacement

I strictly listen to podcasts normally and im very upset about how these men actually look.

You're probably right, of course. I just think it will be interesting to see.

I agree that it’s interesting. These are the kinds of things fans, and even the media, don’t know.

It goes to show Hitchens might not have been as overpaid as we’ve all thought.

Yes. And maybe sending a message about HOW you gain praise from this coach.

I've used that tactic myself... overly and vocally praising an experienced team member for doing it "the right way" as an example to new guys and gals.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Chiefs are planning to use DT Chris Jones as an edge rusher at times this season. That’s going to be a legitimate problem for tackles.</p>&mdash; Jay Glazer (@JayGlazer) <a href="https://twitter.com/JayGlazer/status/1404829646710087683?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 15, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Guys remember when Andy said throughout 2016 that Alex was unquestionably the guy for the indefinite future?

Likely the same deal regarding Hitchens here.

Back to the thread topic, I’m excited to see how they want to use Jones.

Honest question: do we have a precedent in NFL history for a dominant, Top 3 DT who went on to become even a merely really good DE?

Reggie White?

Was Reggie White an elite DT for years? Serious question.

He was right on the cusp of Before My Time and I remember him being an unstoppable wrecking ball at DE.

Was he an unstoppable wrecking ball at DT first?

Chris Jones played 3-4 DE to start his career. He will likely be playing a similar role when playing DE on early downs. He’s not moving to DE full time, and will still be playing inside on passing downs. They’ve also said whether he plays there at all and how often will be dependent on the matchup.

How many times does this have to be explained?

I suspect he will actually be used similarly to how he was used in the Titans game from 2019.

Edited to clarify: the regular season Titans game.

They’re just working him in to create mismatches in certain situations. It’s no different than how Donald is used.

We won't know until the games are played and the snaps can be analyzed, but it sounds like he's going to be on the edge at least part time. Not a Donald arrangement.

I've been saying this for the last couple of years, but it bears repeating.

People are WAY too hung up on positions and what they think are 'prototypes' for those positions.

When Spags ruined Brady and Co.'s perfect season in that super bowl, he moved everyone on the line around all over the place.

In the same way that Matthieu is not really a 'safety', neither does it matter what you want to call Chris Jones when he's not lined up as a typical DT.

Just like we don't really utilize a prototypical slot receiver on offense.

Doesn't matter.

It's about putting guys with unique talents in position to use those abilities.

Don't worry about it. These guys know what they're doing.

He's been here for two seasons. I think the best thing to compare Spags' incoming 2021 defense is the 2019 and 2020 seasons.

And in those seasons, the guys have generally not been cogs you could move around however you want.

It was in 2019, when you'd see a lot of Kpass as a DT in obvious rushing situations so that Spags could get a NASCAR package going. But Jones never played outside, and Clark never played inside. Really they only flexed Kpass and Ogbah.

I've watched a ton of 2020 film the past month and a half, and 2020 was different. Spags still had his NASCAR package, but it was structured different.

In 2019, Spags liked three DEs and Jones. Almost always Kpass as the DT rotating down.

But in 2020, we had the Turk Wharton discovery, and Spags' NASCAR package was usually two DEs and two DTs (almost always Jones and Wharton), almost every time, if you don't count the myriad of blitzes he put together.

The vast majority of time he put together that NASCAR DL, it was with the DTs in the middle and the DEs out wide. Though he did shift it around occasionally.

That's not what we're talking about here, so don't pretend this is Business As Usual. This is (likely) not 2020 Chris Jones, who is a DT who is only a DE once in a blue moon in NASCAR packages. This is also likely not 2016-2018 Chris Jones, who was a 3-4 DE full time.

This is (likely) Chris Jones playing a chunk of his snaps as a legit 4-3 base DE.

Direckshun, can you tell me why you think this plan the Chiefs have for Jones isn't going to work out?

The dude had consecutive years of double digit sacks as a 3-4 end. As a 4-3 end, he's just getting moved over one ****ing gap. Big whoop. Yeah, for some guys that's a big deal. It would be stupid for the Chiefs to ask that out of Derrick Nnadi. But when you're big and athletic and you've basically for all intents and purposes DONE THAT JOB for the first three seasons of your career, that's not a monumental task.

This isn't OL. We're not asking a G to move over and play OT. We're taking a player who has a track record of mauling shit while lined up in a variety of positions and telling him to go blow more shit up.

It has a good chance of working out. And if it doesn't? Well shit, Chris Jones will surely never be able to move back to the interior! At least not until he has a full offseason of work at that position!

Again, you're hung up on your concept of position and prototypes.

You're exactly who I'm talking about.

Wharton's still here. Now Reed is here. And so is Jones.

So yeah, you'll see a chunk of snaps with those three and Clark. Why is this a problem for you? Why isn't it simply a way of getting your best players on the field at the same time?

legit 4-3 base DE? We're in a base 4-3 like a third of the time. We're usually in a heavy nickel type or dime defense with like 4 safeties. I think you're looking at things through an outdated conventional lens when that's not really how this team operates (or really, the NFL in 2021, but KC is certainly on the front edge of innovation I think we'd all have to agree-particularly on offense.)

Kpass was like 290 lbs, huge for a 4-3 DE, so yeah they moved him inside some on passing downs. Why is this like...groundbreaking news for you?

Obviously, they've liked the positional flexibility of having Jones be able to play inside and outside.

Is this just another thing with you, like not liking Veach's tier system?

Because it seems like it.

I think these guys have shown me that 1)they know more about football than I do, 2) They've earned the right to implement their plans before I'm going to criticize and 3) They are constantly innovating from the front office on down and nobody really knows what they're going to do, so wringing our hands about stuff in March, and May, and June when we have no real idea what they're going to do is silly.

Yeah man, I've been really trying not get irritated but it seems like yet another terrible football take.

Positional flexibility is a GOOD THING.

It's what makes Mathieu valuable, for instance.

Chess pieces that you can move around to take advantage of match-ups are a GOOD THING to have.

I see this as a way to get our best D-linemen on the field at the same time. I really don't see the problem.

He knew this last year, he just chose not to say anything.

He just wrecks so much shit inside I'd rather him do that and get someone telse to do it outside. But hopefully he continues to do it outside.

Think about how much trouble a Bull rushing Chris Jones is going to give basically every RT in football. He’s going to threaten the inside shoulder when aligned at RT so well. And he’s quick enough to get around the edge if they over shade inside.

Sets you up for a lot of success with stunts and blitzes behind him.

It’s not an every spot/team thing. But Wharton and Nnadi are better than almost all second true DE options KC has right now. It makes to flex Jobes. He’s still a threat and still sets up advantages for teammates.

The run D will be better with Nnadi and Reed inside most downs. And a pass rush of Clark/Jones/Reed/Charlton still looks pretty salty to me (or even a 3-3-5 or 3-2-6 alignment with Gay or Bolton as a blitzer and no Charlton.

Listening to Nate Taylor on the Times Ours Pod, he really made a point to mention that Jarran Reed afforded them the opportunity to really see this through. We didn’t have a true DT with pass rush ability + a big enough frame to run defend. Saunders was the only one outside Jones with that potential last yet but it didn’t happen.

Now that Reed is here, we still keep that strong inside presence and can do a lot of different things.

I don’t think this move is without flaws though. I think we need to be aware of Jones lack of speed on things like the option or contain. Facing a team with an athletic QB like the Ravens and Seahawks makes me not want pull that trigger bc they’ll just run around the guy easily whereas Mike Danna is extremely smart and athletic enough to stop those

Reggie White played the majority of his time in an odd front or Buddy Ryan's 46, which means as a DE, he was lined up "inside". He wasn't ever an "edge" rusher.

They're not going to go with these big sets exclusively against guys like Lamar Jackson. They've pretty much shut the guy down the last 2 years with guys like Okafor on the outside. They know what they are doing.

.

The only problem is it's tough to determine run vs pass downs now. Teams throw it alot.

I think with Reed in the middle, I'd be more apt to take chances and put him out there anyway.

The thing is, with the right personnel, you can exploit matchups in alignment using stunts and twists. It makes you less limited, not more.

IMO, the key is to not have to use stunts if you have the horses to just get after it, which they do.

Which is again why it will also be dependent on matchups.

Of course but the use of misdirection and deception are valuable tools to augment the entire set. You're not always just gonna line up head-to-head and hope to win every matchup across the board.

Andy and Spags working the long-con here. A bit of Rope-a-Dope?

Big Ben is the only immobile QB we play all season. I’d imagine that circumstances dictate he’ll only play DE the majority of the time on 1st down and 3rd and long.

So not really that much

There’s a huge gap in between Big Ben and Lamar Jackson and everybody else falls in between. You’re getting a little carried away if you think Jones can’t play DE in any game but that one.

He’ll play DE quite a bit this year IMO but I think it’s going to be strategically planned to fit him in on 1st downs and package designs on long obvious passing plays.

Only time I don’t want him playing DE is against Brady bc he gets the ball out too fast.

Why would they play him at DE on long passing downs?

That doesn't make much sense to me at all. Those would be the plays where he should be inside.

Exactly. Pressure up the gut is what QBs hate, and he's pretty ****ing good at it.

Not to mention that you'd often go with smaller, quicker sets on 3rd and long.

Makes sense to have him outside on 1st down and inside on 3rd and long with everything in between being the areas where you experiment.

That's fine, but then who is your outside edge in these situation? The Chiefs lack edge depth right now moreso than interior (Until CJ was moved to DE). They need a guy that can contain these athletic QB's these days in those situations

Right now, it's Danna, Charlton, and Kaindoh.

And Ward.

All of whom can contain the outside while Jones is wrecking the middle. I don't worry about it anymore, Spags is much better at defending the mobile QB's than his predecessor.

I think the majority of his play will be inside with Reed and Clark to his right, but there are reasons why he could play DE on those downs.


1. They probably want Wharton on the field for some packages with Reed, Jones and Clark as they are our best 4 pass rushers
2. They probably have some rush designs set up with Jones at DE that they think will be a nice wrinkle
3. And most importantly as you said a few posts ago:

I swear to god, man, some of you guys act like we're going to go 6-11 and our coaching staff is a bunch of morons.

What the ****?

Innovation tends to breed success, even if only in the short term. If you’ve got a coaching staff that seeks to make the team unique in some way, you’re usually doing it right.

The Chiefs are probably the best in the NFL in terms of overall talent of interior penetrators. Reed and Jones are both top 5, Wharton has a lot of promise, and Saunders could also be great if he can stay healthy. They’re being innovative with how to get all these guys on the field.

How could anybody possibly be a sour puss about this?

Moving a DT to DE is actually more challenging than moving a guard to tackle.

There have been a fair number of guards that have played decent tackle over the course of NFL history. That's why a number of guards have done it over the years and virtually zero DTs have effectively done the move to DE.

I can't believe I'm typing this on a football message board to a group of men who follow football as a primary hobby, but 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE are completely different positions that require completely different skillsets.

Namely: 3-4 DEs primarily match up against guards. They're essentially tackles. Therefore they can afford to be big bodied bears because you're fighting in tighter spaces, which puts less of a premium on the bendy kind of speed-to-power mechanics that you need to challenge an NFL tackle's outside shoulder. Instead, you need to be able to win in the phone booth -- which Chris Jones is a Top 3 talent at doing.

To directly answer your question:

He is incredibly strong and incredibly quick for a guy his size with stupid long arms, but those talents could very well dwindle against NFL tackles who are bigger, longer, quicker, and stronger. Tackles are better football players than guards. You beat them by threatening their outside shoulder and then countering them into oblivion. Jones cannot threaten their outside shoulder -- he's never had the job of bending the edge or converting speed to power. And since tackles will simply not worry about their outside shoulder, they can convert their combat with Jones into a phone booth battle they're built to win. Jones will win some snaps, I'm sure, but the percentage will be so much lower on the edge against tackles than it will be along the interior against inferior guards who have no chance against him.

Jarran Reed helps some, but he is a different kind of passrusher. He can push the pocket and eventually swallow up plays if his teammates do their jobs well. He's also stupendous against the run. But Jones can end plays in the first 2.5 seconds with a great rush.

I'm of the opinion that when you have a guy on your team who is the best in the league at a really important position, you don't move him to another position.

But that seems to be what we're doing, at least part time.

Time will tell, I suppose.

Hey Chris,

I'm not remotely sure if you are properly processing the points I'm making here. Like, I'm literally not sure if you're reading my posts or if you're scanning them and hitting reply.

You say: "of COURSE they moved Kpass in -- why is this news!?" and then you gas on a bit.

I literallly did not say it was news, I was simply describing the system that we're sliding Jones into, in order to set the foundation for my perspective. So I literally don't know where your exasperation is coming from on that point -- or on many of your points.

Tell you what, it's OTAs and we won't know Jones' role until the snaps are live. So let's start with the basics here.

What do you think Jones' role is going to be? Because we're just reading tea leaves at this point.

I think we're looking at him playing roughly 35-45% of his snaps at DE on the strong side. The rest will be in his usual interior habitat.

Do you agree with that prediction, or not?

You're kind of making a mountain out of a molehill with this transition. No, there aren't many interior guys in the NFL who can bounce out to DE in a 4-3 and have success. Jones is one of the few with the explosion and quickness to play the position while letting his size be an advantage. I know what the **** a 3-4 DE does, dude. Jones was a 1-gap 5-technique guy, so he saw plenty of matchups (not to mention double teams FFS) involving the OT when he played in a 3-4. Again, the textbook says this is how these positions go, but this is the modern NFL, where unreal humans like Chris Jones exist. It's a bit of a roll of the dice, but we have an entire regular season to figure out whether it will work, need more time to gel, or just get scrapped and go back to keeping Jones on the inside and rotating guys through those spots. But they're clearly keen on rolling the dice in the name of getting more of those fantastic DTs of ours on the field, and I applaud this move.

Until one of the young guys like Danna turns into a solid starting DE where it becomes a hindrance to take him off the field, we should absolutely be exploring these kinds of alignments. If it works, it has potential to really be a nightmare for OCs.

It’s reasonable for people to want a guy with Top 3 talent at a position to stay at that position full time.

So I do agree with your last paragraph -- that with the roster we have right now, we need to start being creative with the talent on the roster to figure out that other DE position. That's why I've been groaning for months about the DE2 position, for the record: the talent we have at DE outside of Frank Clark (himself a troublesome situation) is less than awesome, and now it's forcing our hand to experiment with moving a Top 3 player out of position. (It's a change that Jones has been actively begging for, so that is a little encouraging, but still.)

Anyway, I don't think this is a roll of the dice. Jones has shown up to camp in a "Spags DE" bodyshape, per reports. I think we're legit putting our eggs in this basket, and I do think it's been a plan for a while, which is why we didn't make a bigtime push for a DE in the draft or free agency. I think they're banking on this working, so I don't think this is a mere molehill.

Let me ask you what I asked Chris in a previous post: what do you think we're looking at here, as we read the OTA tea leaves? My general opinion is that we're looking at Jones playing strongside DE in the base roughly 35-45% of his snaps. You?

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Random Chris Jones banter

I don't really care how much they play Jones at DE. It's going to depend on matchup, and I don't view the expected percentage or breakdown of snaps at each line position to be relevant.

And I'm not worried about Jones and his "Spags DE" body shape. He can still easily play most of his snaps on the interior if need be. What weight was he playing at last year? What's he going to play at this year? They're not going to ask him to drop 30 lbs or something ridiculous like that. And again... if the Chiefs decide that Jones at DE just isn't working out, they have the entire regular season to make that decision to just keep him at DT.

A Spags DE bodyshape is roughly 30 pounds lighter than Jones, give or take, actually. I haven't seen any pictures of him, however; just reading reporting. So I think they've put their eggs in that basket.

Which, personally, I think is a big deal. If he's throwing a third of his snaps away at DE, which I fear he will be, then we may have issues getting a rush going.

Time will tell, though. I don't want to put the cart before the horse here.

Why all the worry? Worst case scenario you move Jones back to DT. No harm done.

Jones is basically Justin Tuck's height and weight, he played both positions for spags.

If they’re switching to more of a 4-man under front, the strong side DE lines up in the same technique Jones played and excelled at in the odd front run by Sutton.

His most productive pass rushing season was in that role. Color me not concerned if that’s where he aligns against 12 or 21 offensive sets.

I think against 11 personnel we’ll see Jones inside next to Reed.

If you assume they’re going to use Jones as a 7 or 9 tech at E, yeah, that seems weird and unlikely to work. It also seems incredibly unlikely. I would bet he lines up as a 4-tech or 5 tech whenever he’s at DE (depending on where the TE ends up).

:clap::clap::clap:

A Spags DE bodyshape?

He's already employed stuff in KC he never deployed in St. Louis or New York.

Stop putting Spags in a box. That might help you quite a bit to see things more clearly.

No, man, I'm reading your posts.

and I think you're looking at everything through an incorrect lens. You're looking at this all wrong.

You're looking at this like we run a typical base 4-3 and concluding that this is a weird personnel fit.

And I'm saying 1)no we don't really 2)Spags loves versatility to exploit mismatches 3)Spags historically has moved his best 4 pass rushers inside and outside so there is precedent 4)This is mostly much ado about nothing.

You're not going to see Jonesy lining up in a wide 9. I seriously doubt that.

He's been lining up in a DE spot occasionally in the past, and we'll see it more frequently this season.

This is not something to get all worked up about. It will happen when the Chiefs feel like it's a mismatch worth exploiting; and it won't when they don't think it is. It's literally another chess piece for the coordinator to play with. It's a big-assed Honey Badger on the line.

Don't get so hung up on the position labels. They're not as cut and dried as what they were twenty years ago. Just like calling Mathieu a safety is not really accurate. Sometimes he is, sometimes he's a slot corner, sometimes he's a freakin' linebacker.

Now sometimes Jones will be inside, sometimes outside, he'll be something the offensive line will have to locate and deal with on every snap.

I really see no downside here.

It's kind of like how Andy Reid's offense is a West Coast offense.

But not really. I mean, kind of, but this is nothing like Bill Walsh's west coast offense.

And now Spags runs a 4-3, only not really, not very often, and he does all kinds of weird stuff that's not typical.

He's trying to find creative ways to best utilize his best players.

Direckshun questioning the Chiefs at every turn is both hilarious and pathetic.

If they're moving him out there because they think he can be as good out there as inside and can expand what they can do on defense, it's a great calculated move.

If it's more desperation because they're lacking at DE, it's not ideal.

I think it's pretty obvious that it's the former and not the latter, because they could easily go sign a veteran DE. There are a few out there still that would be helpful.

And they may well do so before the season starts. But it seems clear that they are not super worried about it.

Exactly.

They aren't gonna say either way at this point because they don't have to. I don't know how you could say it's obvious at this point one way or another.

One thing too-

I realize it's a small sample size, but for the Chiefs staff, they watched the kid in practice all season long.

Tim Ward looked really good in week 17 against the Chargers' starters. He was disruptive with a non-stop motor. He looked like he belonged.

It may well be that the team sees his practice growth and game 17 as something they're comfortable with him playing significant snaps in 2021.

Small sample size for us, confirmation for The Chiefs.

Just sayin'.

I think if they don't sign a vet it's an indication that they're comfortable with Jonesy, Charlton, Danna, and Ward as their LDE rotation.

You don't think if they thought DE was a big enough weakness that they'd move Chris Jones over that they wouldn't have devoted more resources to the position in March and April?

I'm not sure the opportunity ever presented itself.

With the OL being the priority, it kind of had to take a back burner.

I also think it's overblown to worry much about this at this point. They're not dumb. They'll figure something out.

uhh, actions speak louder than words.

They've had Ingram in for a visit. If they were viewing LDE as a hole wouldn't they have signed him? There are others out there too, viable starters, and no word that they've so much as kicked the tires.

They had a clear need at O-line and were aggressive about it all off-season. I think it is OBVIOUS that they don't feel the same urgency about the LDE position.

If they were, they'd have done something about it.

I don't see how that's a controversial statement.

They had Ingram in the building.

That's an opportunity.

It certainly presented itself in the 2nd round of the draft. They took Bolton with Basham sitting right there. Ossai was still available as well.

It also could have presented itself in signing or trading for someone but instead they signed another OT in Wyatt Miller and traded for Mike Hughes to bolster two units that already had a ton of depth.

A reasonable opportunity that is. Or one that they liked.

I'd still think Ingram or Houston or something may be on the table, but theres no rush.

That’s not enough. I get we can’t fix everything in one offseason but I think we can all agree that DE is a big issue. Half the board hates Clark and surely nobody here believes that Danna, Taco, Kaindoh or Jones will fill the void left at DE on the other side.

We had legit problems getting pressure last year. Both Raiders games, Super Bowl and others highlighted this flaw.

Really hope we sign Ingram. It would help a ton

Except that WE don't know shit.

We really don't. We don't watch every practice, we don't sit in on defensive meetings. We have no idea what the team's collective opinion is on anything at all.

I think it's entirely likely that we sign an Ingram type later in the offseason. But if they don't, it says a lot about how they feel about Ward, Charlton, Danna, and Kaindoh.

But what WE agree on or don't agree on isn't based on full knowledge of the situation. Spags and Daly may have an entirely different opinion, and theirs is what matters.

I can't imagine that Houston's pride would allow him to sign with the Chiefs and I'm not even sure if he'd be all that welcome in the lockerroom.

It sure appears to me that outside of injury, the Chiefs are going with the guys they currently have on the roster and if Jones is going to spend 35% of his snaps or more at DE, I'm not even sure another signing, especially an older vet, even makes any sense.

If the Chiefs made their decisions based on whether or not "this forum *likes* a player", this team would be no better than 4-12 every year.

according to this forum (or a chunk of it) we're going to go 6-11 because they want to play Chris Jones at LDE on every down.

Oh, and Veach doesn't know what he's doing either.

Should’ve just closed the thread after this.

We’re also going on like Year 5 of being weak at CB.

“We need corners! Why the hell did we draft this chump and not a CB? Don’t the Chiefs see this massive hole at the position??!!!”

Are we gonna have to go through the same thing for the next several years with DE? Fans bitching about a particular position while the Chiefs are totally fine with what they’ve got because it’s just not as important to what they run?

If only the Chiefs would listen to the fans more!