Jordan had a good team around him in the 90s. Better than the team Lebron had around him in Cleveland in 2009 when Orlando clobbered them. Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong had their best seasons that year before Jordan came back. The Bulls really lost a lot when they let Grant go to Orlando. That's one reason why they lost to the Magic that first year MJ was back. If you remember that series, MJ was on fire. Horace Grant was killing them. Then the next year they got Rodman and nobody could beat them.

Jordan was drafted in 1984 and his first finals was 1991

8th season. Even if he got hurt it's still his 8th season. The fact that Lebron holds up better than MJ shouldn't be used against Lebron

Seventh season.

Jordan’s rookie year was 84-85. His first NBA Finals was 90-91 season.


(I’d argue it was his 6th full season considering he lost almost the entire 85-86 season to injury, but I’ll concede that point)

The fact that Best can't do math shouldn't be used against him.

After losing 4 times, Jordan should have said **** Chicago and gone to South Beach to join up with Hakeem, Gary Payton, and Reggie Miller.

I forgot how NBA seasons work. 1984 draft is "1985 season"

Lebron never had anybody like Pippin from 2003-2010

Lebron teamed up with two all stars, not three

Miami wasn't a contender in 2010. Bosh, Wade, and Lebron made them one. But they never even make the Finals without Lebron

Jesus, how big was that AD mishandle? If he catches that Rondo pass cleanly, he dunks it, the crowd gets into it, and they're down 5. Instead, the Warriors go the other way for an easy 2, crowd dead, and boom! down 15.

It was huge....they came out and stunk for this 2nd half....

Since we're talking about the teams lebron/Jordan played against. Clearly one played and beat superior competition while the other coasted past weak competition on the way to getting beat in the finals...

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They are interesting statistics...

I would argue Lebron's number is at least slightly deflated due to most of the best FAs during his run of finals either went to the Western conference or stayed in the West to avoid him.

Pippen didn’t join Jordan till Jordan’s 4th season and didn’t become an All Star till his 6th season, so don’t really see how your first point is relevant.

Yes, Lebron teamed up with two other previous established All Stars. Jordan helped create one.

To your third point, of course they wouldn’t. I mean, it’s not like Wade had ever made an NBA Finals prior to Lebron arriving . . . . .

Winning is the only stat that matters?

Okay. So why isn't Bill Russell the GOAT, then?

Wow.... what a huge discrepancy.

Wade won his Finals before the Celtics Big 3 formed. No way he gets past those guys without Lebron

And Jordan didn't win squat without Pippen

He's the only player to beat a 70 win team in the playoffs

We'll be able to add another "50 win team" to his resume after he gets done toasting Toronto

Kobe backer purposely grabbed an image from three years ago that also ignores the 3 50 win quality teams the Heat beat in 2011-2012 lockout season (Pacers, Celtics, Thunder). He’d be at 13 (and 14 on Monday after the Raptors go down). Not that anybody was disputing the strength of the East relative to the West over much of the past decade plus anyway.

KD dominated this game with 38 pts and 9 boards

You've mentioned Kobe way more than I have. In fact I literally haven't mentioned him this whole thread. Why are you infatuated with him? And LeBron having 12 or 13 is still pretty far from 20 like Jordan had. Unless you think he'll beat 7 more 50 win teams in his career.
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CP is no place for bad info

Yes Jordan lost several first round playoff series (3 to be exact which were the first 3 of his career) but he also never missed the playoffs until he went to the Wizards at the very end of his career. Lebron missed the playoffs the first couple of years of his career.

As far as this idea that Jordan had a super team. Well sure but it was all drafted and not built through FA and players colluding with one another. Also just to remind people Rodman was traded to the Bulls from the Spurs for Will Perdue.

This chart says it all.

Percentage of positive team VORP contributed from players acquired by the draft for each NBA champion, 1980-2016.

https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/f...amps.jpg&w=840

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">SNL did a LeBron/Cavs sketch last night but it was cut for time<br><br>It&#39;s perfect and Pancakes the Dog &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Tristan 😂😂 <a href="https://t.co/bGvpoBYgAL">pic.twitter.com/bGvpoBYgAL</a></p>&mdash; Tyler Conway (@jtylerconway) <a href="https://twitter.com/jtylerconway/status/993130974220255233?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 6, 2018</a></blockquote>
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Donovan Mitchell is kinda amazing

Probably because of his era (8-15 teams in the league) and lack of offensive production.

Best player in the NBA finals last year also. A PTPer as Dickie V would say.

Still just as big of a pussy as LBJ though.

The East was diluted in the mid 80s. Jordan's first playoff team went 30-52. Lebron's 35-47 record wasn't good enough to make the playoffs in the 2004 East

His first season was in 84-85 and they were 38-44. His second season they were 30-52 but he was hurt and only played 18 games. That was the season they played the champion Celtics and he had his 63 pt historic playoff performance.

Also the East wasn't near as diluted as today since back then they only had 11 teams in the East and 12 in the West.

Jordan made the all defensive team for nine seasons and was voted defensive player of the year one year. Not only did Lebron disappear in the finals against the Mavs, but he got lit up by Jason ****ing Terry.

If you want to talk diluted, the NBA added 6 franchises between 1988 and 1995.

Capela owned his ass

Imagine LeBron on those Bulls teams instead of Michael. I don’t think many of those finals games would have been that close if it was LeBron’s team.

That’s just my .2 tho

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The best and most clutch player in NBA history. They'll have to add his latest buzzer beater.

Yea I’m sure he would’ve done much better tha 6 for 6 in 6 or less :rolleyes:

He couldn’t beat Dirk with Wade and Bosh, but he somehow would’ve done better than that?

He would’ve lost at least once and Pippen along with the rest of his teammates would’ve received all of the blame from Lebron fans.

LMAO

You so crazy KC:

Finals game-winners/tie-ers with 25 seconds or less
– Jordan 4/8 (50%)
– LeBron 0/5 (0%)

And EVERYONE else's near the rack!

LeBron is a soft bitch. Mike was the hardest man to ever play the game. That's where the comparison starts and ends.

Can you imagine how much crying LeBron would do in a world where he could be hand checked and the big guys are all WAY bigger than he is?

They would have beaten the shit out of him in Jordan's day.

WAY bigger than 6'8" 250 lbs?

Every player in Jordan's day was 8'6" and weighed 550 pounds. The Monstars in Space Jam were molded from real NBA players of the day!

I've got bad news for you, Lebron would have throttled dudes if they would have tried to hand check him.

LMAO

LeBron is same size as Karl Malone, who was the beast. Just let that sink in your brain for a minute.

Oakley, Ewing, Larry Johnson, Mourning, Lambier, and on and on etc were the types of PF's and C's that played back then. Big bruisers.

It wasn't position-less basketball like it is today. It wasn't about speed, it was about size. And they let you play defense too.

Way different teams back then.

LMAO

What are you, 12? He would have whined to the refs.

Lots of guys were his size back then. The NBA was a size league, not a speed league. It was a grind. And you didn't take games off for rest. Or have the league extending the length of the season to accommodate more rest.

You went in the lane you got hammered. Every time.

Completely different game. Much like what the NHL has done, and to a certain extent the NFL when it comes to making defense almost impossible.

This.

Can you imagine the The Bad Boys (88-90 Pistons) playing in today’s NBA? Half of their roster would have been fouled out by the 3rd quarter. Much different game back then. You could really play some defense. And some teams were particularly nasty about it.

I fully believe those Pistons helped make Jordan into the competitor he ultimately was and led to his dominance in the playoffs and particularly, the NBA Finals. They were either gonna break his will or he was going to rise to a new level. Once he figured out how to get by them, there was no stopping him. He never looked back after that . . . .

What those Pistons played was not really what any sane person should call defense. The Celtics, Bulls and a bunch of other teams played tough, hard-nosed defense, but even they were pushing the line pretty aggressively. The Pistons ignored the line altogether with some (Laimbeer especially) just playing dirty. He was, as Larry Bird said, literally out to hurt you.

Go to 18:20 mark:

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If you think an NBA with everyone playing THAT style of defense would be good for anyone -- players or fans -- I really don't know what to tell you. That's an ugly, uninteresting, version of the sport.

Don’t believe I made any sort of comment about that defense being good for anyone. Just pointing out that type of play (along with his obvious talent) helped make Jordan into the ultimate competitor that he was. Those Pistons (after the 80’s Celtics) were the final box he had to check off to become the elite player he was and for the Bulls to become the dominant team in the East, and ultimately, the league.

Without them, I don’t think Jordan goes 6 for 6 on titles from 91-98. Especially when you take into account some of their epic series’ with the New York Knicks on their way to the Finals.

Jordan and the Bulls had to learn the ‘hard’ way. Lebron never had to deal with any of that on his way to becoming NBA Elite. Lebron ‘grew up’ in a relatively weak East while Jordan was growing up playing the 80’s Celtics and the Bad Boys. Much different mountains to climb to reach the Finals. And when he finally got there, he NEVER lost! Lebron has had it easy, by comparison. It wasn’t till just a few years ago that he had to face his first real challenge in an All Time GSW team that he has since lost to 2 out of 3 series in the Finals.

Lebron is a beast of a player and an all-time great, but he’s no Jordan.

I think I keyed in on, and read too much into, your one sentence that "You could really play some defense."

Sorry if so.

As for Jordan vs. LeBron -- meh. The argument doesn't much interest me so I'll let you guys battle it out.

Nobody liked that "defense", even while it was happening. It made the games nearly unwatchable. The hand-checking and grabbing didn't make anything more entertaining. The 90s Knicks and Heat certainly didn't help the popularity of the league.

They actually had to change the game because of teams like that much like the NFL had to go away from physical play. While not a lot of points were scored at times it did make for some heated battles. Today's game lacks that for sure.

You are saying the nba in the 90s was “nearly unwatchable”? Is that your position?

laimbeer weighed the same as lebron, oakley was smaller, larry johnson was much shorter and the same weight, mourning was 2 inches taller and the same weight, ewing was 7 foot but 250 lbs also.


whats your point again?

you said WAY bigger, not his size...

It was after Jordan left that is why they changed the rules. It was way to physical.

So the 5 time champion spurs weren't a "real" challenge?

They were the 3 time champions at the time Lebron first faced them in 2007, with their first title being way back in 99.

And if you had read my previous posts in this thread you would note that I gave Lebron a 'pass' on his first NBA Finals, as I recognize he was only 21, it was just his 3rd year in the league, and his team was mostly garbage. So I'm giving him a mulligan there.

Legit 7 fters were all over back then..Smits, Eaton, and Osterbundle of sticks were bulls.

How great would Lebron's defense be if he was allowed to hand-check people?

Does that rule only apply to Lebron?

Do you think it would help last year when to Durant stuck that 3 in his mug to win the game?

Once Jordan left, outside of a few players/teams, it was a lot of low-scoring brutality. A lineup of Starks, Mason, Oakley, and smith just didn’t do much for me (seemingly every single Sunday)

True. But most weighed just about the same as LeBron.

thats not WAY bigger.

Its just not

I guess by that logic the Warriors would destroy the 90s Bulls since apparently 3 pointer>hand-checking

Meh.. there were some bif dudes for sure. I would say most guys were more physical than Lebron..Rougher tougher whatever you want to call it. That was before.this Euroball shit started.

Imagine Jordan’s scoring average if there was no handchecking back then LMAO

Several seasons in the 40s for sure with todays rules and style. Likely 86-88 before he started to learn to get his team mates going with their games.

So are you saying that if LeBron had played back then his game would be the exact same as now?

Not imo. He would have played the way they played back then and at 6 8 and 250 lbs [same weight as most of those huge physical guys of yesteryear that were WAY bigger than him] he could have fit in pretty well.

And those guys would have played like they do today if they had came up like that...

I imagine his game would have been different.

He may have never shot a jumper lol

Lol, this very topic was just brought up by the host on 610. Who says KC media doesnt read CP.

Even Bill Laimbeer said they never saw a guy like Lebron. As big as Malone but athletic as hell

Take MJ and Lebron out of it for a sec. The Bulls dynasty team was way better than the Heat. Coaching, role players...sheesh.

:facepalm:

Yea so good they looked like a slightly above average playoff team and hardly a true title contender the one year without him.

They followed that up by going 23-25 in 1995 until MJ finally returned. Not even ****ig above .500.

Wade/Bosh/Allen would’ve been one of, if not the best, teams in the East with Lebron hypothetically out of the league. The difference isn’t nearly as significant as you’re making it out to be.

Embiid just threw up an air ball 3 late in the 4th. He missed ay least 3 terribly at the end of game 3. His coach should shut that shit down a little

I can’t believe I forgot about that when I was arguing with O.City yesterday

Everybody wants to talk about the Bulls winning 55 games in ‘94, but NOBODY ever brings up how awful they were in ‘95 till he came back.

23-25 and people want to act like that team would’ve ever won anything of significance without MJ.

The heat wouldn’t have won anything of significance without lebron though either.

They’re not ready yet. Need another year or so and more guys around those two.

:clap:Yup

And probably a new coach too