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Old 07-21-2014, 07:25 AM  
FishingRod FishingRod is offline
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RJ Reynolds' $23-billion punitive damage award unlikely to stand: experts

By Gertrude Chavez-Dreyfuss and David Ingram
NEW YORK (Reuters) - A decision by a Florida jury to impose punitive damages of $23.6 billion against RJ Reynolds Tobacco Company on Friday is likely to be rejected on appeal or the award reduced substantially, lawyers with expertise in jury awards said on Sunday.
The award, which the cigarette maker has said it will contest, likely falls outside the boundaries for punitive damages that the U.S. Supreme Court has laid down in a series of cases, the lawyers told Reuters.
RJ Reynolds is a unit of Reynolds American , which last week announced it would acquire rival Lorillard Inc in a cash-and-stock deal valued at $27.4 billion, including net debt.
A Florida state court jury decided the award in a case brought by Cynthia Robinson of Pensacola. She is the widow of a chain smoker, Michael Johnson, who died of lung cancer in 1996 at 36.
After a four-week trial and 11 hours of deliberations, the jury returned a verdict granting compensatory damages of $7.3 million to the widow and the couple's child, as well as $9.6 million to Johnson's son from a previous relationship.
The same jury deliberated for another seven hours before awarding Robinson the additional sum of $23.6 billion in punitive damages, according to the verdict forms.
"Nobody thinks the $23 billion is going to remain," said Richard Daynard, a law professor at Northeastern University and the chair of its Tobacco Products Liability Project.
Because of constitutional guarantees of due process, the Supreme Court has shown a reluctance to allow punitive damages that are far out of line with compensatory damages in the same case, he said. The court's general guideline is that the ratio of punitive to compensatory damages should be below 10:1.

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The court precedent, though, still leaves room for a punitive award of more than $150 million, Daynard said.
Punitive damages are meant to discourage companies or people from bad conduct, while compensatory damages are intended to pay victims for their actual losses.
"There were all these concerns about runaway awards with regard to punitive damages," said Neil Vidmar, professor of law at Duke University. "Some are saying that nine times (the compensatory damages) is the absolute limit, but actually many times, the courts have cut that down to one or two times."
In 2008, the high court cut a $2.5 billion punitive damages award against Exxon Mobil Corp for the 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill off Alaska to about $500 million, saying the ratio in that case should be 1:1 with compensatory damages.
But there is "no mathematical bright line rule," said Professor Catherine Sharkey, a tort law expert at New York University School of Law.
Robinson sued R.J. Reynolds in 2008 over the death of her husband, Michael, claiming the company conspired to conceal the health dangers and addictive nature of its products. Johnson, a hotel shuttle bus driver, smoked one to three packs a day for more 20 years, starting at age 13.
Robinson's lawsuit originally was part of large class-action litigation known as the "Engle case," filed in 1994 against tobacco companies.
A jury in that case issued a verdict in 2000 in favor of the plaintiffs, awarding $145 billion in punitive damages, which at the time was the largest such judgment in U.S. history.
That award, however, was rejected in 2006 by the Florida Supreme Court, which decertified the class. It agreed with a lower court that the group was too disparate and that each consumer had smoked for different reasons.
But the court said the plaintiffs could file lawsuits individually. Robinson was one of them.
"I worked with juries for several decades, and I cannot put my mind on what they are doing, but the Florida jury (in awarding a huge sum) seems to be sending a message," said Duke's Vidmar. "This is a statement from the jury that this was an outrageous behavior by the tobacco companies."
RJ Reynolds has paid about $114 million for 15 Engle-related cases that have been finalized, the company said in an April regulatory filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Another $180 million in damages are on appeal.
Northeastern's Daynard noted that the $23 billion is close to the cost of the Reynolds-Lorillard merger deal, adding that Wall Street should be aware of the potential for more huge damage awards.
"You're going to have a lot more cases where juries could find themselves similarly outraged," he said. "The reluctance of the tobacco companies to settle these cases, thinking they can handle the cases as a matter of course, may be a mistake."
The two cigarette makers face thousands of suits, but the impact has not been as dramatic as was expected a decade ago, and trials have given investors an idea of what the companies will pay.
(Reporting by Gertrude Chavez-Dreyfuss and David Ingram; Editing by Dan Grebler)
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:06 PM   #61
LoneWolf LoneWolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
You want my answer? The plaintiff proved its case to a rightfully seated jury, and received an award commensurate with the evidence they presented. That's my answer.
And I'm out. Nice sidestepping of the actual question asked. Have a good night.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:25 PM   #62
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
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Originally Posted by LoneWolf View Post
And I'm out. Nice sidestepping of the actual question asked. Have a good night.
Read the edit. I think I gave an honest answer as best as I could devine your grammar.

Not to be a grammar Nazi, I honestly couldn't tell exactly what you were asking. Under oath I would refuse to answer your question until it was rephrased clearer.
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:31 PM   #63
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:39 PM   #64
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
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Old 07-21-2014, 10:52 PM   #65
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by LoneWolf View Post
Holy ****. My post asked one single question that could have been answered "yes" or "no". If you chose to elaborate, that would be your choice.

When you go to law school, are there a block of classes that teach you how to be an asshole or are you just naturally gifted?
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Originally Posted by LoneWolf View Post
And I'm out. Nice sidestepping of the actual question asked. Have a good night.
I asked him a legal question through PM once and never really got what was an actual answer to the actual question. A bunch of assumptions were made though. It left me mystified. I got it sorted elsewhere in a straightforward manner.
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Old 07-21-2014, 11:14 PM   #66
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I asked him a legal question through PM once and never really got what was an actual answer to the actual question. A bunch of assumptions were made though. It left me mystified. I got it sorted elsewhere in a straightforward manner.
Bullshit. You asked a question devoid of a lot of pertinent detail. I gave you a free, gracious and succinct reply and you never said another word. If you went else and paid someone to draw your situation out of like a child and explain it back to you again as such, good on you.

And people wonder why I'm 'a dickish asshole who won't answer simple yes/no legal questions.'

You wanna go there? Here you go. Your unsolicited request for free legal advice and my reply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEP
I've use a Q and A site with lawyers but they don't cover contracts.

If you sign a contract with someone in business but they do not give you a copy, despite asking more than once, is it enforceable should I break a part of it because I can't rely on memory?
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Contracts are only REQUIRED to be written if the worth of the exchange is greater than $500 or the contract terms will not reasonably be completed in less than a year.
If either is your case you may be able to breach if they actually don't have the written contract.
Otherwise what you have is a hybrid written/oral contract. You and the other party agreed to contract terms presumably and the other party possesses a written memorial of that agreement.
It sucks that they aren't providing you this helpful document, but unless you meet either of the two criteria above you are just in business with dicks.
Your best bet is probably to appeal to their better nature. At some point you both wanted whatever is in the contract to happen, so ask them if that's what still want and if so help you perform a quality job that meets the terms.
Also, is there any chance you have prior preliminary written offers, proposals or drafts. It's not as good as the actual document but it may jog your memory sufficiently to meet the terms.
I doubt for a person of average reading comprehension that whatever advice you received deviated much if at all from what I said, which was the most general, non-state specific, formulation of generic common law.

But thanks for shitting on people who offer assistance when requested. Maybe you could make me a free art portfolio that I could shit on in a year or two down the road.

Really proving your class today, BEP.
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Last edited by Baby Lee; 07-21-2014 at 11:27 PM..
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Old 07-22-2014, 12:45 AM   #67
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by BEP
I've use a Q and A site with lawyers but they don't cover contracts.

If you sign a contract with someone in business but they do not give you a copy, despite asking more than once, is it enforceable should I break a part of it because I can't rely on memory?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure, if you don't have a copy of the contract and it contains stuff you forgot about, it's generally void.

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Old 07-22-2014, 12:56 AM   #68
Baby Lee Baby Lee is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
Originally Posted by BEP
I've use a Q and A site with lawyers but they don't cover contracts.

If you sign a contract with someone in business but they do not give you a copy, despite asking more than once, is it enforceable should I break a part of it because I can't rely on memory?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sure, if you don't have a copy of the contract and it contains stuff you forgot about, it's generally void.

BL+BEP=EPIC
Classy to omit my response that said that if they had a paper contract, she needed to work with them because it was enforceable, and interjecting your own snark suggesting I advised the opposite.

Stay gold Scottyboy.
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Old 07-22-2014, 05:16 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I'd mention the ignore function to you, but it appears that if it weren't for your ability to follow me around to post anywhere and everywhere the always informative and never repetitive 'Oh, here's Baby Lee on CP again, I for myself do not like this guy,' you'd have no reason to exist here at all.

The question stands though, have you so much as contemplated in passing posting something of value or substance? . . . just once to see how it feels?
Well, there is the constant sucking of Obama's penis.......
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Old 07-22-2014, 06:57 AM   #70
GloryDayz GloryDayz is offline
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Originally Posted by cosmo20002 View Post
You're delusional, queenie. I ignored your pretentious bullshit for the longest time. I found it obnoxious and vapid...usually a lame Dennis Miller impression about obscure celebrities and podcasts...but it was never really directed towards me so I didn't say anything.

Then YOU started up shit with me, more than once. A little searching could easily confirm this. Now you're all butthurt because sometimes I actually comment on your vacuousness and outright dishonesty. And I let the great majority of it go without comment. But YOU calling BEP hormonal--I couldn't let that go.
From you, that's pretty funny....
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:05 AM   #71
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
Classy to omit my response that said that if they had a paper contract, she needed to work with them because it was enforceable, and interjecting your own snark suggesting I advised the opposite.

Stay gold Scottyboy.
I was snarking at her. Frankly, your reponse was more than that ridiculous question deserved.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:13 AM   #72
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Really proving your class today, BEP.
Nope. For one, I already knew most of what you posted in that answer. I wasn't asking for all that. As I recall, I wrote back after that 'cause the answer did not handle my dilemma.

I believe I wrote a response back to that first round, clarifying that I knew some of that and clearing up some of your assumptions.

You made a bunch of assumptions which you answered and gave advice that I was not seeking. Like I said I got it handled elsewhere. The simple answer was "Yes it is still enforceable."

See how simple that was.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:19 AM   #73
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Speaking of calling-out others for putting personal info on the board BL, did that girl who you had a serious relationship with really just dump for your politics, as you claimed, or because of your hostile style by telling her about her flaws? Somehow the latter is more believable to me.

Classy? Or well you started this whole thing. Added later: If you want class you have to not be a dick first.

EDIT: Someone was changed to "somehow." And the addition.
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:28 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I've been here, I'd say, a good while. And you get the honor of being the first to pull this lost puppy shit with me. I've had many a substantive row with posters on here, and we've went toe to toe and figuratively shook hands later. But none have made it their mission to post nothing save, 'here's that guy again, did you know I don't like him much' over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

I've seen such obsession in other posters here in the past, just never directed at me. They all eventually flamed out and crashed hard, never to be heard of again, whether be going off the deep end themselves, or ousted by the mods for their bat shit antics. Sorry your jonze has you so firmly in its grip, hope you snap out of it before you find yourself staring blankly at your own reflection for hours, applying and re-applying lipstick in loopier and loopier swirls.

Just stay away IRL. You're uber creepy.
when he is trying to give you the business (without much success) he is giving BEP a break from his non-sense
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Old 07-22-2014, 08:30 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by King_Chief_Fan View Post
when he is trying to give you the business (without much success) he is giving BEP a break from his non-sense
This is true, I must admit.
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