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Old 06-28-2014, 05:17 PM  
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Brady doesn't matter when it comes to NSA evidence.

According to Judge Richard Posner, the DOJ doesn't have to share evidence gathered by the NSA to bring a suspect to trial. Note that the defendant here is one of the 'home grown terrorists' in which the FBI and informants look for people to entrap.

All, I have to say is welcome to the fascist state people. We now have secret trials with secret evidence.
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Old 06-28-2014, 05:29 PM   #2
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post

All, I have to say is welcome to the fascist state people. We now have secret trials with secret evidence.
Yup! It's happened here and so many embrace it without qualms so long as it's not happening to them. Just like Germany circa 1930's.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:55 PM   #3
JohnnyV13 JohnnyV13 is offline
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Listen, I bang on libertarians for a lot of their concepts about theoretical purity, but I completely agree with them that our courts have made wacky constitutional decisions since 9/11.

I don't know what some of these judges are thinking.
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Old 06-29-2014, 06:20 PM   #4
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It sounds like all he did was say that the judge should review the material first to decide whether or not there's even an argument about whether it should be shared. If there is, he can move on to an adversarial hearing to settle the issue.

If he looks at the evidence and finds that there is nothing there that even arguably falls under the Brady rule, then there's no reason for it to be shared.
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Old 06-29-2014, 08:51 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It sounds like all he did was say that the judge should review the material first to decide whether or not there's even an argument about whether it should be shared. If there is, he can move on to an adversarial hearing to settle the issue.

If he looks at the evidence and finds that there is nothing there that even arguably falls under the Brady rule, then there's no reason for it to be shared.
Actually, usually judges defer to have the prosecution hand over all the evidence for the simple fact that the judge does not now the defenses strategy and evidence they in their opinion is immaterial, may in fact not be. Considering Brady material also includes information the defense can use to impeach the credibility of government witnesses and/or reduce the defendants sentence. This ruling is very suspect.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:13 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It sounds like all he did was say that the judge should review the material first to decide whether or not there's even an argument about whether it should be shared. If there is, he can move on to an adversarial hearing to settle the issue.

If he looks at the evidence and finds that there is nothing there that even arguably falls under the Brady rule, then there's no reason for it to be shared.
...thus stripping accountability from the process. That's "all"...
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:13 AM   #7
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It turns out that the FISA statute requires the judge to review the material first to determine whether or not it was legally acquired and only if she can't make that determination is she allowed to share it with the defendant's properly cleared attorneys. In this case, the judge was able to make that determination but she ordered the material shared anyway in violation of the statute.

In a separate opinion (.pdf), Judge Rovner acknowledges the inherent problems defendants will have in challenging FISA warrants and calls on all three branches (especially Congress) to attempt to address them. Nonetheless, Rovner concurs with the Posner opinion "in full". There were no dissents.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:16 AM   #8
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Your argument is an example of how people justify the usurpation of the Constitution when it suits their politics.

We should declare war formally and just take pows. For eff's sake it would be simple to resolve.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
...thus stripping accountability from the process. That's "all"...
Not really. The normal fixtures of accountability are compromised to some extent (as the defendant's interests are weighed against the social interests at stake in FISA matters) but not stripped.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:17 AM   #10
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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It's still usurping the Constitution.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:36 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
It's still usurping the Constitution.
What part? I've read the Constitution and I've never seen anything about a requirement for adversarial hearings on evidentiary matters.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:03 PM   #12
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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What part? I've read the Constitution and I've never seen anything about a requirement for adversarial hearings on evidentiary matters.
Due process.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:13 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Due process.
Nope.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:24 PM   #14
GloucesterChief GloucesterChief is offline
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Nope.
Yes, considering we already now the NSA hands over evidence to the DEA so that they can construct an investigation and hide the source of the initial tip, that being a warrantless wiretap. The defense lawyers have a good case that the FBI may have gotten the same help before you know entraping the guy.

This evidence could impeach government witnesses as to how exactly they made the case against the defendant.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:46 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by GloucesterChief View Post
Yes, considering we already now the NSA hands over evidence to the DEA so that they can construct an investigation and hide the source of the initial tip, that being a warrantless wiretap. The defense lawyers have a good case that the FBI may have gotten the same help before you know entraping the guy.

This evidence could impeach government witnesses as to how exactly they made the case against the defendant.
I understand that *you* want increased levels of due process, but I was asking where adversarial evidentiary hearings are required in the constitution.
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