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Old 11-04-2013, 05:32 PM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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****Official 2014 STL Cardinals thread ****

2011 WS Championship
2012 one win from another WS
2013 two wins from another WS title
2014?
  • This is a franchise that has made the postseason 10 times in the last 14 seasons.
  • Reached three World Series in the last decade, and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
  • Our new Manager has more post season experience than any other manager in baseball, except the Giants manager.
  • Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
  • 60 post season wins since 2004. 20+ wins more than any other team.
  • Only one of the last 14 seasons has been a losing one.

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Old 11-21-2013, 11:12 AM   #121
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Lance Lynn is the statistical equivalent of Matt Garza and the clear superior to Edwin Jackson.

Jackson got $50 million on the open market last year, Garza will likely get $70 and cost somebody a first round draft pick.

And you folks want to trade Lynn, who's value on the market is well established by similar players, for a '4th OFer'.

People - you need to calm the !@#$ down about Lance Lynn. The kid's an extremely valuable player that can get swings and misses with his fastball; there aren't a lot of pitchers with that skill-set, most require their breaking ball. When he's on, he adds a tumbling action to it that has guys hammering pitches into the dirt. Lance Lynn's a legitimate fastball pitcher with plus heat - those don't grow on trees. No, he's not an ace, he's not a legit #2 but for most teams he's absolutely a competent #3 starting pitcher with upside.

Quit trying to give him away. It's fueled by emotion and little else. Look at the market and recognize that guys like him are pretty hard to find. We've just become spoiled by the fact that we have obscene arms like Miller, Martinez and now Wacha on the staff.

5 years ago we'd have held onto Lance Lynn like grim death. A mere 3 years ago we were forced to trade a gold glove and silver slugger winning right fielder to acquire Jake Westbrook, who we then gave $27 million to because we needed a reliable innings eater.

Stop pissing on Lance Lynn - he's a good player and a hell of a lot more valuable than a friggen 4th OFer.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:55 AM   #122
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Lance Lynn is the statistical equivalent of Matt Garza and the clear superior to Edwin Jackson.

Jackson got $50 million on the open market last year, Garza will likely get $70 and cost somebody a first round draft pick.

And you folks want to trade Lynn, who's value on the market is well established by similar players, for a '4th OFer'.

People - you need to calm the !@#$ down about Lance Lynn. The kid's an extremely valuable player that can get swings and misses with his fastball; there aren't a lot of pitchers with that skill-set, most require their breaking ball. When he's on, he adds a tumbling action to it that has guys hammering pitches into the dirt. Lance Lynn's a legitimate fastball pitcher with plus heat - those don't grow on trees. No, he's not an ace, he's not a legit #2 but for most teams he's absolutely a competent #3 starting pitcher with upside.

Quit trying to give him away. It's fueled by emotion and little else. Look at the market and recognize that guys like him are pretty hard to find. We've just become spoiled by the fact that we have obscene arms like Miller, Martinez and now Wacha on the staff.

5 years ago we'd have held onto Lance Lynn like grim death. A mere 3 years ago we were forced to trade a gold glove and silver slugger winning right fielder to acquire Jake Westbrook, who we then gave $27 million to because we needed a reliable innings eater.

Stop pissing on Lance Lynn - he's a good player and a hell of a lot more valuable than a friggen 4th OFer.
The Cardinals like Peter Bourjos and "he could be the guy" if a David-Freese-to-the-Angels trade is worked out, according to the Orange County Register's Jeff Fletcher.

Bourjos would then compete with Jon Jay for the team's starting center field job in spring training, with the loser taking over fourth outfielder duties. The move would improve both St. Louis' team defense and speed. While the Cardinals are stacked with third base candidates -- rendering Freese expandable -- the Angels are not. Grant Green is their current projected starter with Luis Jimenez as a backup option. They simply must bring in another hot corner option.
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Old 11-21-2013, 11:57 AM   #123
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I would think OT would be 4th OF initially and they would try to trade Jay if they make this trade?
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:27 PM   #124
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I'm cool with that.

Bourjos for Freese makes a lot of sense for both sides and Bourjos could maybe give Jay the kick in the ass he needed when Rasmus was around to make him stay focused and at his best.

That's a win/win deal, IMO.

As for OT being the 4th OFer, Moe's smarter than that. You don't burn service time on a premier prospect so he can be a bench hitter, especially not if you already have a credible option in Jay and/or Robinson.

That's way way too much potential value you've exhausted just to have a guy take a dozen ABs in April. Besides, Taveras struggled a little in Memphis and had some attitude issues. I think they'll start him in AAA and have him earn his way up.

Strangely enough, I could almost see Piscotty making it as a bench hitter before Taveras. It's counter-intuitive, but that will sometimes happen with guys that are seen as good, but not exceptional organizational assets.
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Old 11-21-2013, 04:36 PM   #125
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A lot of Oscar's maturity issues were in Low A. Temper tantrums in the field and such.

I'm just not as high on Bourjos as other people. Steamer projects him as a 2.6 WAR player w/ 500 ABs, whereas Jay projects to 3.2 over 650. Jay has a better offensive track record, so Freese is a little much for Bourjos when Robinson can give us 90% of his defense.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:08 AM   #126
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A lot of Oscar's maturity issues were in Low A. Temper tantrums in the field and such.
When he was like 18. I pretty damn immature at 18.
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I'm just not as high on Bourjos as other people. Steamer projects him as a 2.6 WAR player w/ 500 ABs, whereas Jay projects to 3.2 over 650. Jay has a better offensive track record, so Freese is a little much for Bourjos when Robinson can give us 90% of his defense.
A 4th outfielder is about all we are going to get for him before we have to pay him the $4 Million on Dec. 2nd. I'm okay with Bourjos.

I just don't see how we can bring Freese back as anything but a bench bat and insurance. The Cardinals, fans and Freese just need to move on. It's in everyone's best interests.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:13 AM   #127
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And you folks want to trade Lynn, who's value on the market is well established by similar players, for a '4th OFer'.
Who is wanting that trade?

Most fans I see advocating for a Lynn trade are for Hardy/Andrus level.

Lynn may get $75 million some day but he will still piss down his leg when things go bad for him.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:36 AM   #128
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Lynn's biggest problem is he is zipping along and then anywhere from the 4th-6th inning he implodes. He's useless after that.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:38 AM   #129
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Lynn is a 3rd to 4th starter who consistently pisses down his leg in the biggest moments. DJ, he's really no different than Jon Jay, and we know how you feel about him. If you look at both of their WAR, they're valuable players, but the course of three consecutive postseasons has revealed them as the type of player that shrinks from the moment time and again.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:56 AM   #130
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Lynn is a 3rd to 4th starter who consistently pisses down his leg in the biggest moments. DJ, he's really no different than Jon Jay, and we know how you feel about him. If you look at both of their WAR, they're valuable players, but the course of three consecutive postseasons has revealed them as the type of player that shrinks from the moment time and again.
Lynn was a boss in his first post-season.

Last post-season he was gassed.

This post-season I still don't get the animosity. His Pirates start was lousy, to be sure. But he was stellar in relief against the Dodgers and really, his start against them was solid as well. It got nasty on him there in the 5th, but he recovered and was actually looking pretty good in the 6th before his defense hurt him and I believe Matheny pulled him too soon.

In game 4 of the WS the guy put up a WHIP right at 1 and had a solid K rate. He was coasting in the 6th inning of that game as well and was out of that damn inning until Pedroia hit a great pitchers pitch and fisted it into the OF. Matheny had him IBB Ortiz (foolishly) and then ****ed him over when he brought in Maness to give up that HR.

Lynn actually pitched a good game but he got victimized by a flare single and shitty managing.

I think we get a lot of confirmation bias when people analyze Lance Lynn.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:06 PM   #131
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Lynn also came in and effectively salted away Game 6 of the WS. He was decent enough in the first PS...as a reliever.

He gave up a walkoff HR to Werth in Game 4 of the NLDS last year as well.

The problems with Lynn have always been the same: he's going to pick an inning to implode, and he's going to go through a six week to two month stretch where he pitches like Kip Wells.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:10 PM   #132
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Lynn was a boss in his first post-season.

Last post-season he was gassed.

This post-season I still don't get the animosity. His Pirates start was lousy, to be sure. But he was stellar in relief against the Dodgers and really, his start against them was solid as well. It got nasty on him there in the 5th, but he recovered and was actually looking pretty good in the 6th before his defense hurt him and I believe Matheny pulled him too soon.

In game 4 of the WS the guy put up a WHIP right at 1 and had a solid K rate. He was coasting in the 6th inning of that game as well and was out of that damn inning until Pedroia hit a great pitchers pitch and fisted it into the OF. Matheny had him IBB Ortiz (foolishly) and then ****ed him over when he brought in Maness to give up that HR.

Lynn actually pitched a good game but he got victimized by a flare single and shitty managing.

I think we get a lot of confirmation bias when people analyze Lance Lynn.
He is a solid 3, which is valuable. He has the stuff to be even better. He isn't Carp or Wainright in his make up on the mound, but few consistently have that edge. I think he is a chip for bargaining for sure, but we should expect strong value in return.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:38 PM   #133
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Jeff Fletcher of the Orange County Register reports that the Cardinals and Angels are still working on a trade, "likely involving David Freese and Peter Bourjos."

Fletcher notes, though, that "some more pieces need to be involved." He was the one that reported Thursday that the Cards wouldn't trade Freese for Bourjos straight up, so the Angels will likely have to throw in a prospect or two to make the trade work. St. Louis is unwilling to part with their young pitching for Erick Aybar, so it appears that the trade would be limited to Freese and Bourjos, plus whatever secondary pieces can be agreed upon.
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:04 PM   #134
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Jeff Fletcher of the Orange County Register reports that the Cardinals and Angels are still working on a trade, "likely involving David Freese and Peter Bourjos."

Fletcher notes, though, that "some more pieces need to be involved." He was the one that reported Thursday that the Cards wouldn't trade Freese for Bourjos straight up, so the Angels will likely have to throw in a prospect or two to make the trade work. St. Louis is unwilling to part with their young pitching for Erick Aybar, so it appears that the trade would be limited to Freese and Bourjos, plus whatever secondary pieces can be agreed upon.
Are the Angels assuming that Pujols' ability to produce has something to do with some type of synergy with Freese being across the diamond and vice versa?

Why would they want Freese?
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:23 PM   #135
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Are the Angels assuming that Pujols' ability to produce has something to do with some type of synergy with Freese being across the diamond and vice versa?

Why would they want Freese?
So they can alternate Trumbo and Pujols at first and DH.

I don't understand why the Cardinals wouldn't float Kelly+Freese for Aybar and Bourjos.
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