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Old 06-26-2013, 07:16 AM  
alnorth alnorth is offline
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SCOTUS Gay Marriage Opinions

DOMA - Federal law which allows one state to refuse to recognize a marriage from another state, and which federally bans gay marriage.

Section 3 of DOMA is unconstitutional. The rest of DOMA still remains. This means that federal law must recognize same-sex marriage, but since Section 2 remains standing, states are still free to refuse to recognize a marriage from another state. That will likely be challenged in a future court case.

5-4 decision, Kennedy and the 4 liberals. The conservatives are split with 3 dissents.


Prop 8 - California Gay Marriage ban.

The 9th circuit appeal is dismissed due to lack of standing. We now know definitively that if the state government refuses to defend a state proposition, the prop sponsers can still go to court, but they can not appeal if they lose. The decision by the 9th circuit is also gone. Judge Vaughn Walker's ruling stands, and is final. Gay Marriage is legal in CA.

5-4 decision, Roberts, Scalia, and 3 of the liberals. Kennedy, Alito, Thomas, and Sotomayor would have found standing and proceeded to the merits. The question on whether a fundamental right to gay marriage exists countrywide will have to wait for another day.

Last edited by alnorth; 06-26-2013 at 09:38 AM..
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:18 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I haven't read the case, but to my knowledge it wasn't decided as a right. It wasn't as simple as that. To my knowledge it had to do with other things.

So, I ask BRC, based on the claim in his post about certain rights he is referring in the Constitution.
I honestly never thought of it myself until the gay marriage debate started coming up. I always took it for granted. I have found marriage laws (age, ethnicity, incest, etc.) spread around the country but not any definitive national origin for the institution itself.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:19 PM   #122
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I honestly never thought of it myself until the gay marriage debate started coming up. I always took it for granted. I have found marriage laws (age, ethnicity, incest, etc.) spread around the country but not any definitive national origin for the institution itself.
Part of my point.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:20 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Part of my point.
...and then it gets weird because it is both a legal and religious institution. Which tends to blow separation of Church and State out of the water.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:31 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
...and then it gets weird because it is both a legal and religious institution. Which tends to blow separation of Church and State out of the water.
Aside from the fact that there is no separation of Church and State mentioned in the Constitution, this hasn't much to do with the federal govt. (except where federal benefits apply)

You have to remember states had official state churches at the time the Constitution was written.
I am not sure marriage has always been a religious institution, all the way back in time, but I don't see that is vital to it. It's more of an economic survival arrangement.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:31 PM   #125
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What gave you the right to marry?
I think marriage precedes the Constitution but that's just a guess. Kinda like what gives someone the right to have children.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:32 PM   #126
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I think marriage precedes the Constitution but that's just a guess. Kinda like what gives someone the right to have children.
Of it precedes the Constitution. It probably even precedes govts and churches.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:44 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Aside from the fact that there is no separation of Church and State mentioned in the Constitution, this hasn't much to do with the federal govt. (except where federal benefits apply)

You have to remember states had official state churches at the time the Constitution was written.
I am not sure marriage has always been a religious institution, but I don't see that it vital to it. It's more of an economic arrangement.
Yes it is. Just not in those specific words. That phrase comes from a letter clarifying the concept, written by Thomas Jefferson while he was the sitting President. There have been a lot of issues in this country that, historically speaking, caused a clash between current culture and legal principle. This is one of them. Constitutionally speaking that "watershed moment" happened when the Supreme Court decided that states were required to follow the Bill of Rights. For the history of the institution of marriage you have to look beyond US history and European history. That institution has existed for a very, very long time.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:46 PM   #128
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I think marriage precedes the Constitution but that's just a guess. Kinda like what gives someone the right to have children.
Marriage in general as an institution? Of course. It would be silly to suggest otherwise. Within the context of this discussion, which applies to marriage in this country, nothing existed before the Constitution because the country did not exist.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:47 PM   #129
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Not going to get into separation of Church and State again with you listo. We disagree.

But it should not pertain to the states either way since many, at that time, had official state churches and the CC allowed that.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:53 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Not going to get into separation of Church and State again with you listo. We disagree.

But it should not pertain to the states either way since many, at that time, had official state churches and the CC allowed that.
LOL, yeah it would be better to agree to disagree. We both have strong opinions on the subject. At the time of the Incorporation Doctrine, the Supreme Court ruled that the Bill of Rights applied to the states as well. Early on there was a lot of "leave it to the states" going on because the union was substantially more fragile.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:58 PM   #131
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LOL, yeah it would be better to agree to disagree. We both have strong opinions on the subject. At the time of the Incorporation Doctrine, the Supreme Court ruled that the Bill of Rights applied to the states as well. Early on there was a lot of "leave it to the states" going on because the union was substantially more fragile.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that I go by originalist intent and as such, the Inc Doctrine was judicial activism. It's a bogus doctrine despite that the SC claims. They do err. Furthermore, the 14th Amendment was not properly ratified. This has also been covered by me in long detail under the banner of destruction of federalism. If it does that, it defeats the purpose of the Tenth Amendment as well as the Ninth. Particularly, in cases, where the federal congress did not make a law violating such rights.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:06 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I haven't read the case, but to my knowledge it wasn't decided as a right. It wasn't as simple as that. To my knowledge it had to do with other things.

So, I ask BRC, based on the claim in his post about certain rights he is referring to in the Constitution. He has to answer because he had something in mind.
I also, did not see the Federal Congress passing any laws that violate certain rights at least in the gay marriage ban in CA.
Once there are laws allowing marriage, and conferring certain other rights and privileges to married people, then those opportunities need to be offered to everyone (equal protection). That's what you're looking for.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:15 PM   #133
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Yeah, but you're forgetting that I go by originalist intent and as such, the Inc Doctrine was judicial activism. It's a bogus doctrine despite that the SC claims. They do err. Furthermore, the 14th Amendment was not properly ratified. This has also been covered by me in long detail under the banner of destruction of federalism. If it does that, it defeats the purpose of the Tenth Amendment as well as the Ninth. Particularly, in cases, where the federal congress did not make a law violating such rights.
I doubt that the framers did not intend for the Constitution to apply to all citizens equally, within the context of their concept of "equality", and applying their notion of what a "citizen" was. I don't believe it's a bogus doctrine when it allows the federal government to overrule a state government that is not, strictly speaking, following the letter or the intent of the Constitution.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:47 PM   #134
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Once there are laws allowing marriage, and conferring certain other rights and privileges to married people, then those opportunities need to be offered to everyone (equal protection). That's what you're looking for.
So siblings should be allowed to marry?
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:50 PM   #135
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So siblings should be allowed to marry?
Is there a legitimate reason to disallow it?
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