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Old 06-07-2013, 01:14 AM  
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Rand Paul to Introduce Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013

Rand Paul to Introduce Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013
Mike Riggs|Jun. 6, 2013 2:24 pm

Gage SkidmoreIn the wake of reports that the NSA has collected millions of phone records from Verizon customers, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) announced today that he will introduce the Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013 tomorrow, Friday, June 7. Here's the release from Paul's office:

WASHINGTON, D.C. – Sen. Rand Paul today announced he will introduce the Fourth Amendment Restoration Act of 2013, which ensures the Constitutional protections of the Fourth Amendment are not violated by any government entity.

“The revelation that the NSA has secretly seized the call records of millions of Americans, without probable cause, represents an outrageous abuse of power and a violation of the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution. I have long argued that Congress must do more to restrict the Executive’s expansive law enforcement powers to seize private records of law-abiding Americans that are held by a third-party,” Sen. Paul said. “When the Senate rushed through a last-minute extension of the FISA Amendments Act late last year, I insisted on a vote on my amendment (SA 3436) to require stronger protections on business records and prohibiting the kind of data-mining this case has revealed. Just last month, I introduced S.1037, the Fourth Amendment Preservation and Protection Act, which would provide exactly the kind of protections that, if enacted, could have prevented these abuses and stopped these increasingly frequent violations of every American’s constitutional rights.

“The bill restores our Constitutional rights and declares that the Fourth Amendment shall not be construed to allow any agency of the United States government to search the phone records of Americans without a warrant based on probable cause.”

http://reason.com/blog/2013/06/06/ra...urth-amendment
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:21 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
No, there's more than ONE. Ron Paul, Judge Napolitano and many other libertarian authors have been consistently writing and reporting on such incidents. They were vilified by the right at the time.
I think they are still vilified by the right's majority.


Until more people wake up and realize the majority of Washington is one big Reblicrat party that follows a "You scratch my back Ill scratch yours" system with no regard for what is best for their fellow citizens or the country, things will only become worse.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:31 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by NWTF View Post
I think they are still vilified by the right's majority.


Until more people wake up and realize the majority of Washington is one big Reblicrat party that follows a "You scratch my back Ill scratch yours" system with no regard for what is best for their fellow citizens or the country, things will only become worse.
All their family members are employed by each other. They all come up with BS no-show jobs and hire each others in-laws and kids.

It's all a racket. They all have dirt on each other as well. All of them are stealing or worse.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:41 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWTF View Post
I think they are still vilified by the right's majority.


Until more people wake up and realize the majority of Washington is one big Reblicrat party that follows a "You scratch my back Ill scratch yours" system with no regard for what is best for their fellow citizens or the country, things will only become worse.
Yup, while they exempt themselves from the laws they pass for the rest of us.

If they were subject to all those laws, most of them would be arrested.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Fairplay View Post
Rand Paul will be one of the first to go in the concentration camps, or simply not heard of again.

The Night of the Long Knives part two Obama style.
I think Glenn Greenwald may beat him to it. Or they may go together. Glenn is uncowed by the bullies.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/bu...eak.html?_r=1&

And don't forget veteran Brand Raub getting arrested by the FBI for his Facebook posts while playing a war game. He was jailed and threatened to be drugged by a govt psychiatrist if he didn't cooperate until a civil libertarian lawyer got his case dismissed.

Ron Paul speaks later in this video saying the the 4th Amendment Has Been Wiped Off the Books.
Says he's been speaking out about this for a while.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:49 AM   #20
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Christian Conservative Pundit Hugh Hewitt: It's Fine That the Feds are Spying on You

"Data Collection Isn’t Data Abuse -- Yet"

http://townhall.com/columnists/hughh...--yet-n1615205

It's okay if godly people are in charge and they're going after jhadists.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:56 AM   #21
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The thing to do here is to stop doing business wiht Verison as it suits you and tell them this is the reason.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:57 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
The thing to do here is to stop doing business wiht Verison as it suits you and tell them this is the reason.
Well, that's hard to do here. I had to go with them because they were the only one in this area that was not always down for internet use. Their competitors suck.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:00 AM   #23
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So I'm not actually taking ANY position on whether the government is doing is reasonable, but I want to point out that those who usually scream loudest about the Constitution not being taken PRECISELY word for word and "liberal" interpretations, etc., don't have a single leg to stand on when they say that the government asking A PHONE COMPANY for records regarding calls is definitely NOT in the Fourth Amendment.

Quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Right of the people to be secure in their

1. persons: Nope, no person was searched, frisked etc.

2. houses: Nope, no house was searched.

3. papers: Nope, no papers.

4. effects. Nope.

Quote:
ef·fect (-fkt)
n.
1. Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result.
2. The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence: The drug had an immediate effect on the pain. The government's action had no effect on the trade imbalance.
3. A scientific law, hypothesis, or phenomenon: the photovoltaic effect.
4. Advantage; avail: used her words to great effect in influencing the jury.
5. The condition of being in full force or execution: a new regulation that goes into effect tomorrow.
6.
a. Something that produces a specific impression or supports a general design or intention: The lighting effects emphasized the harsh atmosphere of the drama.
b. A particular impression: large windows that gave an effect of spaciousness.
c. Production of a desired impression: spent lavishly on dinner just for effect.
7. The basic or general meaning; import: He said he was greatly worried, or words to that effect.
8. effects Movable belongings; goods.

This data isn't even THEIRS. It's technically the property of another person altogether, the phone company.

Again, I'm not saying the government is right, I'm just pointing out that all of a sudden Libertarians are finding a very broad "right to privacy" in the 4th Amendment that really isn't there. But "strict construction" goes out the window if/when they want, just like they accuse others of doing.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:07 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Amnorix View Post
So I'm not actually taking ANY position on whether the government is doing is reasonable, but I want to point out that those who usually scream loudest about the Constitution not being taken PRECISELY word for word and "liberal" interpretations, etc., don't have a single leg to stand on when they say that the government asking A PHONE COMPANY for records regarding calls is definitely NOT in the Fourth Amendment.



Right of the people to be secure in their

1. persons: Nope, no person was searched, frisked etc.

2. houses: Nope, no house was searched.

3. papers: Nope, no papers.

4. effects. Nope.




This data isn't even THEIRS. It's technically the property of another person altogether, the phone company.

Again, I'm not saying the government is right, I'm just pointing out that all of a sudden Libertarians are finding a very broad "right to privacy" in the 4th Amendment that really isn't there. But "strict construction" goes out the window if/when they want, just like they accuse others of doing.

Strict vs loose interpretation. People use it to fit their argument.

Thomas Jefferson is an excellent example of this. (not actual quotes)

As Secretary of State:
"Alexander there is nowhere in the Constitution that says you can start a nation bank."

As President re: the La Purchase:

"It doesn't say I can't buy land in the Constitution"


So I guess for me it's more than just what the laws says but the actions/behavior the law is trying to drive.

The 4th Amendment is clearly trying to drive the behavior of privacy and for Government to be careful in which the manner that citizens are investigated. To make sure it's above board so citizenry doesn't feel cheated or enslaved.

These actions discussed here are counter to that goal set forth by the 4th Amendment in the Bill of Rights, which was ratified by just about every state.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:12 AM   #25
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Verizon is an intermediary and the government is forcing them to send a record of our calls. This violates free speech — NOT just an invasion of privacy when no aggression has been involved.

Another reason this is not needed is because terrorist attacks have not been that common. All since 9/11 where the alleged have been caught before it happened, turned out to be FBI stings. This just keeps people believing it's needed because the govt is doing its job. Even in the case of Boston, the FBI had data already through other means on the culprits and failed to act.

One is still more likely to be a victim of another crime than a terrorist attack. Or even be struck by lightening. And we could get off the lands where jihadists are created to lessen the threat. Furthermore, it was said after 9/11 that laws in the 1970's prevented FBI and CIA from sharing data. That could just be fixed simply by removing that prohibition. Not create a humungous new Dept of Homeland Security which has a Nazi ring to it.

Here's a picture of another massive NSA agency spy center being built in Maryland while construction of its Utah data center is approaching completion. This is what our hard earned tax money is going to.



http://www.datacenterdynamics.com/fo...ve-data-center
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:25 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Verizon is an intermediary and the government is forcing them to send a record of our calls. This violates free speech — NOT just an invasion of privacy when no aggression has been involved.
So is this a First Amendment right being violated or a Fourth Amendment?

And if it's First Amendment, whose rights? The Company or the individuals whose data is being given to the government. And in any event how is providing data about who calls whom and for how long a violation of freedom of speech?

Quote:
Another reason this is not needed is because terrorist attacks have not been that common. All since 9/11 where the alleged have been caught before it happened, turned out to be FBI stings. This just keeps people believing it's needed because the govt is doing its job. Even in the case of Boston, the FBI had data already through other means on the culprits and failed to act.
One is still more likely to be a victim of another crime than a terrorist attack. Or even be struck by lightening. And we could get off the lands where jihadists are created to lessen the threat. Furthermore, it was said after 9/11 that laws in the 1970's prevented FBI and CIA from sharing data. That could just be fixed simply by removing that prohibition. Not create a humungous new Dept of Homeland Security which has a Nazi ring to it.[/quote]

Ooo! OOOOOO!! I know this, I know this -- DEFLECTION! AND STRAWMAN!! You're changing the subject to whether the government NEEDS to data. That's deflection. Also, I never raised whether the government needs the data, but rather only whether getting it is a violation of the Constitution. That's strawman. You should learn what these key argument techniques mean so you can apply them properly.

And you didn't say rat's ass all about the Fourth Amendment, so do you agree that it's not a violation of the Fourth Amendment as written?
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:26 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post

The 4th Amendment is clearly trying to drive the behavior of privacy and for Government to be careful in which the manner that citizens are investigated. To make sure it's above board so citizenry doesn't feel cheated or enslaved.

These actions discussed here are counter to that goal set forth by the 4th Amendment in the Bill of Rights, which was ratified by just about every state.

Believe me, I'm all for loose interpretation and a living, breathing document. I'm just pointing out that many here who are usually strict interpretation psychopaths suddenly find that loose interpretation works for them.
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:40 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco View Post
Strict vs loose interpretation. People use it to fit their argument.

Thomas Jefferson is an excellent example of this. (not actual quotes)

As Secretary of State:
"Alexander there is nowhere in the Constitution that says you can start a nation bank."

As President re: the La Purchase:

"It doesn't say I can't buy land in the Constitution"


So I guess for me it's more than just what the laws says but the actions/behavior the law is trying to drive.

The 4th Amendment is clearly trying to drive the behavior of privacy and for Government to be careful in which the manner that citizens are investigated. To make sure it's above board so citizenry doesn't feel cheated or enslaved.

These actions discussed here are counter to that goal set forth by the 4th Amendment in the Bill of Rights, which was ratified by just about every state.
Well to be fair to Jefferson, he did admit that the Purchase by him was "beyond the Constitution."
Not his finest moment. It would have been ratified anyway, and it was ratified by the Senate just 3.5 months later by a vote of twenty-four to seven. It was the time constraints demanded on him that caused him to act or the offer would have been removed.

This shows, that once in power, that all men will take license with the document and that it's up to the people to scream when it happens. I mean even Washington allowed Hamilton his unConstitutional US Bank. What's even more ironic is that the northern Federalists were outraged by the idea ( like Amnorix currently) when their abuses were and still are much worse for the country and even more common.

At least Jefferson saw Napoleon as a monster who Jeffereson had up-to-date military intelligence on revealing Bony's possible intentions on America. Too bad Bony needed money more. This is how all war mongering empires end. Broke.


Here's the timeline of events (http://www.monticello.org/site/jeffe...siana-purchase) and a document from the National Archives showing the advice and consent of the Senate. (http://www.archives.gov/historical-d...?dod-date=1020)
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:46 AM   #29
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Ron Paul: NSA Seizing Phone Records Symptom of Failure of The State

Shows people were speaking out earlier...like Ron Paul. How BIG govt reduces liberty. Whether it's
the security provided by the welfare state or the national security state.

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Old 06-07-2013, 10:48 AM   #30
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Amnorix sounds more and more like Mussolini:
"All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state."
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“Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the Government’s purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning but without understanding.” — James Madison
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BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.BucEyedPea is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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