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Old 04-21-2013, 08:49 PM  
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ACLU to Kansas school district: Cancel creationist assemblies about Dinosaurs

http://www.reddit.com/tb/1ct42w


The American Civil Liberties Union has warned a southwest Kansas school district against holding mandatory student assemblies that feature a creationist group.

“Teaching or otherwise promoting creationism is, simply put, unlawful,” the ACLU wrote in a letter to Hugoton Public Schools superintendent Mark Crawford on Friday. “As the District is surely aware, the federal courts have been unequivocally clear that efforts to inject religious beliefs regarding the origin of life into public school science curricula are constitutionally impermissible, no matter what form they take.”

Hugoton Public Schools invited Creation Truth Foundation’s founder Dr. G. Thomas Sharp to teach the “Truth about Dinosaurs” at two assemblies next week. At least one of the assemblies will be mandatory for all students and teachers.

The group has created teaching materials “explaining the origins, extinction and possible existence of dinosaurs” from a Biblical view and believes the dinosaur Tyrannosaurus rex walked the Earth as early as 100,000 years ago rather more than 65 million years ago. In a lecture uploaded to YouTube last year, Sharp criticized scientists for ignoring the great flood of the Bible.

“We respectfully request the District take immediate and concrete steps to remedy these problems,” the ACLU concluded. “The first step would be to cancel the planned mandatory school assemblies now set for next week.”

However, superintendent Crawford has said he will not call off the assemblies. He told The Kansas City Star the assemblies will not promote creationism, despite the beliefs and mission of the Creation Truth Foundation.

“I agree with the ACLU, in that, if a mandatory all-school assembly where creationist truths or creationist beliefs were expressed, that would be inappropriate public-school content, and that is not the case,” Crawford said. “It’s completely and totally school appropriate.”
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:08 AM   #151
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Those homeless people lining up for meals outside churches must be an illusion.

And no shut ins get meals delivered by churches either.

And church members definitely don't spend their own money to travel to impoverished countries to do things like dig wells and distribute medicine or mosquito nets.

When you act like churches are just all bad and some sort of evil entity, Dave, it just makes you look like a small minded bigot.
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:11 AM   #152
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Those homeless people lining up for meals outside churches must be an illusion.

And no shut ins get meals delivered by churches either.

And church members definitely don't spend their own money to travel to impoverished countries to do things like dig wells and distribute medicine or mosquito nets.

When you act like churches are just all bad and some sort of evil entity, Dave, it just makes you look like a small minded bigot.
The same amount of money spent directly is 100 times more effective.
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:13 AM   #153
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Exaggeration and/or conjecture. Or simply, a theory. There a plenty of conspiracy theories I do not subscribe to.



That is your opinion. You can no more prove me wrong than I can prove myself correct. What we have here is the case of yet another working theory in progress.
It's not my opinion. It's the collectively agreed opinion of hundreds of thousands of scientists that has been in formation for several hundred years. Proof for evolution has been provided, but you've proven unable to understand it. In this thread already, you've shown that you don't know the difference between a theory as it applies to normal conversation, and a Scientific theory, as it applies to explaining factual observations about the world. That's a very fundamental step toward understanding the scientific process.

You keep saying that evolution has its flaws, but every time I've asked, you've run away and refused to answer. So I'll ask again, what are the flaws you've found with evolution? Let's discuss them.
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:18 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
... because they don't understand it ( ex. Carbon dating )....
wait... carbon dating is actually a very simple concept that even middle-schoolers can understand. are you saying that you don't have the intellect of a middle-schooler?
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:40 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
Not all theories are based in facts. You assertion that they are is quite ridiculous.
Actually they are. A scientific theory is different than the generic term used by most. This basic lack of understanding of the simplest of differences is one reason people get so frustrated when debating topics such as this. Gravity is only a theory. Einstein must be an idiot.

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I told you last night, you have the wrong guy for this type of argument. I spent quite a few YEARS not knowing what I believed or what I was going to end up believing. And my questions started with religion and God specifically. I openly researched not just the religious beliefs I had grown up with but, the opposing views as well in search of just some kind of answer to satisfy my doubts and fears. I looked into evolution even more than I would have ever imagined. My parents did the exact opposite of what most parents would do in that situation (God bless them), they allowed me to seek the answers I was craving instead of trying to force me to accept their beliefs. Dad even went so far as to offer me the ability to cease praying before meals and skipping church if I didn't feel comfortable with those things. I took him up on the first and, on the second declined, just in the hope of hearing something at some point that would sway me one way or the other. And I reached a point where I didn't really care which way it was, I just wanted to be settled in my mind with some kind of answer.

I have, with the most open of minds studied both sides of the issue. Ultimately I made the choice that made the most sense to me. That is why I require a 100% proof, because I have already been down that road. Nothing out there currently has been able to convince me that evolution is the truth of the matter.

So with all of that being said, if this attack on people who hold to religion is your best counter argument, I would suggest finding someone else to have this debate with. Because with me, it will not even score you cheap debating points, let alone score as an actual argument.



I could very easily make the counter argument that people who cling to an unproven theory like evolution have a vested interest in seeing it sustained, as it allows for them to disavow a higher power that they are accountable to. Therefore, they can live whatever kind of lifestyle they desire with out worry of being judged. Restrictions and rules, and ultimately law slowly starts to become extinct with a supreme power to answer to.



With out rule of law, and with out freedom, we would still be "cavemen". It is order, decency and liberty that allow people to grow and achieve greatness. Even scientific greatness.
Your issue seems to be that you think evolution is contradictory to creation or believing in God. (I could be wrong on this though). The only thing it contradicts from a religious perspective is a literal interpretation of the Bible. But guess what? Virtually everything contradicts that and there is really no debating that.

This is what evolution looks like if the present equals 112.

1 + x = 3, 3 + 2x = 7, 7 + 3x = 13, 13 + 4x = 21, 21 + 5x = 31, 31 + 6x = 44, 44 + 7x = 58, 58 + 8x = 74, 74 + 9x = 92, 92 + 10x = 112.

All the numbers are evidence and facts of things that existed and we can observe for which there is no debating. X with its multiplier represents the so called "missing links" and "holes" in the theory. These would be transitional fossils. We can see the clear transition from 1 to 7 because we have 3 in the middle. But there will always be transitions between those.

And you can't prove there are not even more transitions between the 1 and 3 other than x because you cannot prove a negative. i.e. I can NEVER prove there is NOT animal 1.5 between 1 and x but that does not mean the evolution from 1 to 3 and 1 to 7 and 1 to 112 is not clear. This is where many people cling to in order to try to falsify evolution. "You don't have everything!" Even if we did have everything, we could not know it or prove it because we cannot observe what does not exist. Just like we cannot prove Bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist.

So although we don't have each and every transitional fossil (we certainly have a lot, if not most of them though), it is pretty clear what each one should look like because we have the factual information of its ancestor and decendent as well as the multiplier representing other facts such as where it was found. But that is the great part. Sometimes x IS found, which turns out to be as predicted by the theory, providing further evidence that the theory as it is, is correct. So x is found well now we need to find the transition between 1 and x because it is predicted or the evidence shows that one could be there. But that doesn't mean the theory is wrong.

I think that this is a good way to show why evolution is "only" a theory.

Disclaimer: This is an analogy I kind of came up with on my own after seeing similar things in the past. But I do think it makes sense. At least to me it does!
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:42 AM   #156
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Atheist are here simply for our entertainment, nothing more. They worship what they call 'science' because they don't understand it ( ex. Carbon dating ). Arguing with them breaks the first rule of the internet - never argue with an idiot, as they only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
So all the nobel prize winners, professors/researchers at prominent academic institutions, and the majority of academics are... idiots?


Bold. ****ing. Statement.

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Old 04-24-2013, 09:47 AM   #157
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins
This man accepts evolution understanding the overwhelming evidence. He still manages to hold to his Christian beliefs. It amazes me that people still dismiss evolution~
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:34 AM   #158
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Evolution isn't some fairy tale based off of a bunch of other religions like Christisantaclaus. There is actual scientific proof.
Religion is big business and always has been.

I'm not intimidated by God the creator I just actually use my brain to deduce logical opinions.

Tell the family of the 8 year old boy that was blown up last week that it was God's plan.

Why is it that there are so many other animals on earth but the most despicable and vile one was created in your God's image?

Go ahead and pray for my soul and negative rep me. I have yet to see a thing in this ****ed up world that leads me to believe we are nothing more than a link in an evolutionary chain.

sure it is....it came from a guy who flunked out of seminary and med school...someone who claimed the eye could easily disprove his "findings"

and you are intimidated, it's why you've continued to ridicule Him..it's also why , like most here, you play both sides of His existance...when you can take a stand, let me know.

why don't you go tell the parents of the eight year old that their child is the most despicable and vile animal? Jesus said that children were as the Kingdom of God...that little boy is in Heaven.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:42 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
sure it is....it came from a guy who flunked out of seminary and med school...someone who claimed the eye could easily disprove his "findings"
Evolution didn't 'come from' Charles Darwin, though he was certainly a significant scientist who contributed to our understanding of evolution.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:00 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
sure it is....it came from a guy who flunked out of seminary and med school...someone who claimed the eye could easily disprove his "findings"

and you are intimidated, it's why you've continued to ridicule Him..it's also why , like most here, you play both sides of His existance...when you can take a stand, let me know.

why don't you go tell the parents of the eight year old that their child is the most despicable and vile animal? Jesus said that children were as the Kingdom of God...that little boy is in Heaven.
Darwin didnt know about the mechanism of evolution, he was observing natural selection
The theory of evolution did not come from Darwin

Also the eye comment is possibly the most taken out of context quote I can think of from any author

He asks himself a rhetorical question and then in the next paragraph goes on to answer it. He did not ever suggest the human eye refuted changes in hereditary traits, he simply explained how something seemingly irreducible(like an eye) is actually not
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:10 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
sure it is....it came from a guy who flunked out of seminary and med school...someone who claimed the eye could easily disprove his "findings"
I understand that in religious "Teachings" it's common for stories to be told by one person, and simply be accepted as fact by the rest. But that's not how it works with Science. Evolution didn't "Come from" Darwin. Darwin simply proposed one theory to explain the factual observations of evolution. And that theory has been updated and tweaked and added to ever since, by millions of other scientists making their own observations.

Also, he didn't flunk out of seminary or med school. He quit because it didn't interest him. It was not because he was not capable. He disliked the religious BS. Saying:

Quote:
Around this time, he had an earnest conversation with John Herbert about going into Holy Orders, and asked him whether he could answer yes to the question that the Bishop would put in the ordination service, "Do you trust that you are inwardly moved by the Holy Spirit". When Herbert said that he could not, Darwin replied "Neither can I, and therefore I cannot take orders" to become an ordained priest
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:40 PM   #162
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High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
Not all theories are based in facts. You assertion that they are is quite ridiculous.
You're right. Not all theories are based on facts. Just the scientific ones.

A scientific theory is an attempt to interpret and explain facts that have been observed. A non-scientific theory can certainly be based upon anything, including things such as revelation and faith. But, by definition, scientific theories are based only on facts.

Life forms change over time. That's a fact. The theory of evolution is an attempt to explain how the process works. That's a theory based upon the facts that have been observed.

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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
So with all of that being said, if this attack on people who hold to religion is your best counter argument, I would suggest finding someone else to have this debate with. Because with me, it will not even score you cheap debating points, let alone score as an actual argument.
I wasn't attacking people who hold to religion, and I'm sorry that you interpreted it that way. I was simply pointing out that it's difficult for deeply religious people to look at things like evolution in an objective manner when they are being told over and over again by the ultimate authority figures in their lives that they'll go to hell if they do. The threat of eternal damnation is a pretty powerful motivator to dismiss an argument without even examining it objectively.

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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
I could very easily make the counter argument that people who cling to an unproven theory like evolution have a vested interest in seeing it sustained, as it allows for them to disavow a higher power that they are accountable to. Therefore, they can live whatever kind of lifestyle they desire with out worry of being judged. Restrictions and rules, and ultimately law slowly starts to become extinct with a supreme power to answer to.
I'll grant you that this is a legitimate counter-argument. I personally don't find it convincing because I think the motivation to avoid eternal damnation is stronger than the motivation to live a hedonistic lifestyle, but you make a fair point.

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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
With out rule of law, and with out freedom, we would still be "cavemen". It is order, decency and liberty that allow people to grow and achieve greatness. Even scientific greatness.
I'll grant this point as well. I wouldn't want to live in a society created by scientific sociopaths. Of course, that begs the question regarding where laws and morals actually originate from. Are they simply learned behavior that people adopt in order to escape punishment from God, or do humans have an innate capacity to do good things and make morally correct choices?

To me, the most exasperating thing about the whole debate is that evolution and religion don't have to be mutually exclusive. Whether a person is a theist or an atheist has nothing to with whether or not the theory of evolution correctly describes the process by which life forms change over time. There are other reasons that drive people to one set of beliefs over the other.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:35 PM   #164
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins
This man accepts evolution understanding the overwhelming evidence. He still manages to hold to his Christian beliefs. It amazes me that people still dismiss evolution~
He's french man, that disqualifies his opinion right there.
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:16 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by stevieray View Post
sure it is....it came from a guy who flunked out of seminary and med school...someone who claimed the eye could easily disprove his "findings"

and you are intimidated, it's why you've continued to ridicule Him..it's also why , like most here, you play both sides of His existance...when you can take a stand, let me know.

why don't you go tell the parents of the eight year old that their child is the most despicable and vile animal? Jesus said that children were as the Kingdom of God...that little boy is in Heaven.
Emotional gibberish.
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