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Old 04-19-2013, 04:11 PM  
Rain Man Rain Man is offline
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What makes a first-round left tackle bust?

You take a guy like Jason Smith. Obviously he's been a disappointment to the Rams, but why?

When you look at an offensive tackle, you measure him, and that's pretty obviously objective. You can watch a ton of game tape on him to see how he plays in real-life situations. You can time how fast he gets into pass protection and how agile he is. Maybe it's harder to measure whether he can react to audibles, but really, if he's got elite measurables it seems like even if he screws that up he can get in someone's way.

So why is Jason Smith a bust? He was deemed an ultra-safe pick. What is he not doing, and was there some way it could have been measured? And not just him, but also Robert Gallery, Kwame Harris, Trezelle Jenkins (sigh), Mike Williams, Kenyatta Walker, Stockar McDougle, and so on.

Or for that matter, just stick to Jason and Gallery since they were ultra-high picks. Trezelle was known to be a project.

It just seems like there are relatively few variables that are critical for an offensive lineman, and that all of them should be identified and measured by now. These are, after all, multimillion dollar investments.
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:12 PM   #16
Mr. Laz Mr. Laz is offline
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Originally Posted by CrazyPhuD View Post
Not having a Franchise QB to protect....
did willie roaf ever have a franchise QB to protect?
Ogden?
slater?

i'm sure i'm too old to think of them


QB kills an offense but it doesn't keep a left tackle from doing his job
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:41 PM   #17
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:55 PM   #18
Chris Meck Chris Meck is offline
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
I watched nearly every game Gallery played in college. The guy was a beast. Dominant against the pass rush and punishing in the run game. And he came from college coaching that has turned out a lot of technically sound NFL linemen.

To this day I can't understand how he didn't become a great NFL player.
Yeah, me either. That guy seemed like a slam dunk, and there's just no reason for him to be mediocre.
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:58 PM   #19
Rain Man Rain Man is offline
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Was Jason Smith that good in college? I thought he just blew up the combine
That would be an interesting tell. I tend to shy away from guys who rocket up in the combine.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:00 PM   #20
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I tend to place a lot of emphasis on desire. Does a guy love the game? Does he love to hit? Does he want a Super Bowl?

I think about Greg Wesley as an example where it mattered. No one can argue about him being a fantastic athlete, but the guy just didn't really like football. So he tended to jog around on the field. It was a shame.

If you watched the ESPN show about Chris Spielman, that's a guy who loved football. Those guys will want to excel, and it's not about the money.
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:05 PM   #21
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We are the Dolphins of the few years ago. Taking the "safe pick" lineman over the "flawed" QB. Worked grrrreat for them!!! Probably even get a taste of vet QB turn around, 1st round playoff loss to boot!!
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:08 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jspchief View Post
I watched nearly every game Gallery played in college. The guy was a beast. Dominant against the pass rush and punishing in the run game. And he came from college coaching that has turned out a lot of technically sound NFL linemen.

To this day I can't understand how he didn't become a great NFL player.
short arms?
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:09 PM   #23
Rudy lost the toss Rudy lost the toss is offline
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Originally Posted by Urc Burry View Post
Was Jason Smith that good in college? I thought he just blew up the combine
yeah he was basically Lane Johnson
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:28 PM   #24
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What makes a first-round left tackle bust?
Being drafted by the KC Chiefs.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:07 PM   #25
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I think it's really hard to predict how some guys will react to becoming instant millionaires. Will they remain hungry or get lazy? Will they still play with heart, or lose their passion?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:27 PM   #26
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Tale of two highly rated offensive tackles. Nearly identical size, combine performances, nearly identical positive and negatives.

6'5"
309 lbs.
33 1/2" Arms
9 3/4" Hands

40: 5.22
Bench: 33
Vertical: 24.0"
Broad: 96.0"
3 Cone: 7.53
20 Shuttle: 4.69

Positives: Tall, athletic left tackle prospect. ... Excellent straight-line speed and hustle, getting downfield on screens and long runs. ... Can pull and trap, running smoothly and adjusting to oncoming defenders. ... Moves to the second level quickly, using good angles to keep linebackers out of the play. ... Should work well in zone-blocking schemes with his ability to lock onto defenders and move. ... Gets down quickly to cut block despite his height. ... Adjusts well to outside blitzers. ... Willing to throw his man to the ground and keep him there. ... Has made significant improvement in terms of technique and strength over the past two years at left tackle.

Negatives: Typically operates out of a two-point stance... Raw in his pass-set technique, standing a bit upright and backpedaling instead of sliding to mirror his man. ... Locks onto his man at first, but eventually loses his balance and grip due to his average upper-body strength and footwork. ... Does not have much of a punch in pass protection. ... Can lose the hands battle on the line. ... Could use a bit more bulk in the lower body to be more effective as a drive blocker. ... Could be moved inside to left guard for a zone-blocking team.


---------------------------------

6"6"
309 lbs.
34" Arms
10" Hands

40: 5.30
Bench: 27 Reps
Vertical: 28.5
Broad: 106.0
3 Cone: 7.40
20 Shuttle: 4.68

Positives: Technically-sound left tackle prospect. Plays with good bend and a very wide base in pass protection in spite of his long legs. Moves feet quickly and stays in balance, rarely giving up the edge and pulling off the down block/outside blitz pick-up admirably. Good timing and strength on his punch, possesses good hand placement and will reset them to maintain distance. Recovers quickly if his misses his punch, stays on his man. Gets after his man in the run game, has foot quickness to get correct angle and keeps them moving to sustain the block. Good power step inside to choke off inside spin moves. Capable cut-blocker. Excellent athleticism and foot speed, showing the ability to mirror and stay in front of many talented pass rushers over his three years starting.

Weaknesses: Does not possess elite upper or lower-body strength; only adequate as a drive-blocker and can be pushed back by better defensive ends and shed in the run game. Foot quickness is good, but does not execute the reach block as often as you’d like. Overextends his punch on occasion, vulnerable to a rip move outside or spin inside. Played exclusively in a two-point stance and can get caught playing upright. Did not frequently face pass rushers that challenged him hard upfield.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:47 PM   #27
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:52 PM   #28
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:03 PM   #29
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:15 PM   #30
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A left tackle, no matter how good, has a ceiling to his value. A quarterback's ceiling is nearly unlimited.

Think of it this way: A middle reliever that gives a team a FIP of 3.00 and strikes out a batter than inning is a great value for $1 million a year. If you pay that same middle reliever $12 million a year he becomes a leaden albatross.

Due to the fixed impact of a LT but the extremely high cost, unless Joeckel can assert himself as a consistent top 5-8 LT, he's a bust.

There were many others to add to your list: Tony Mandarich, Leonard Davis, Levi Brown, et. al.
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