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Old 04-18-2013, 12:22 AM  
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U.S. Engaged in Torture After 9/11, Review Concludes

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/16/wo...concludes.html

By SCOTT SHANE

WASHINGTON — A nonpartisan, independent review of interrogation and detention programs in the years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks concludes that “it is indisputable that the United States engaged in the practice of torture” and that the nation’s highest officials bore ultimate responsibility for it.

The sweeping, 577-page report says that while brutality has occurred in every American war, there never before had been “the kind of considered and detailed discussions that occurred after 9/11 directly involving a president and his top advisers on the wisdom, propriety and legality of inflicting pain and torment on some detainees in our custody.” The study, by an 11-member panel convened by the Constitution Project, a legal research and advocacy group, is to be released on Tuesday morning.

Debate over the coercive interrogation methods used by the administration of President George W. Bush has often broken down on largely partisan lines. The Constitution Project’s task force on detainee treatment, led by two former members of Congress with experience in the executive branch — a Republican, Asa Hutchinson, and a Democrat, James R. Jones — seeks to produce a stronger national consensus on the torture question.

While the task force did not have access to classified records, it is the most ambitious independent attempt to date to assess the detention and interrogation programs. A separate 6,000-page report on the Central Intelligence Agency’s record by the Senate Intelligence Committee, based exclusively on agency records, rather than interviews, remains classified.

“As long as the debate continues, so too does the possibility that the United States could again engage in torture,” the report says.

The use of torture, the report concludes, has “no justification” and “damaged the standing of our nation, reduced our capacity to convey moral censure when necessary and potentially increased the danger to U.S. military personnel taken captive.” The task force found “no firm or persuasive evidence” that these interrogation methods produced valuable information that could not have been obtained by other means. While “a person subjected to torture might well divulge useful information,” much of the information obtained by force was not reliable, the report says.

Interrogation and abuse at the C.I.A.’s so-called black sites, the Guantánamo Bay prison in Cuba and war-zone detention centers, have been described in considerable detail by the news media and in declassified documents, though the Constitution Project report adds many new details.

It confirms a report by Human Rights Watch that one or more Libyan militants were waterboarded by the C.I.A., challenging the agency’s longtime assertion that only three Al Qaeda prisoners were subjected to the near-drowning technique. It includes a detailed account by Albert J. Shimkus Jr., then a Navy captain who ran a hospital for detainees at the Guantánamo Bay prison, of his own disillusionment when he discovered what he considered to be the unethical mistreatment of prisoners.

But the report’s main significance may be its attempt to assess what the United States government did in the years after 2001 and how it should be judged. The C.I.A. not only waterboarded prisoners, but slammed them into walls, chained them in uncomfortable positions for hours, stripped them of clothing and kept them awake for days on end.

The question of whether those methods amounted to torture is a historically and legally momentous issue that has been debated for more than a decade inside and outside the government. The Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel wrote a series of legal opinions from 2002 to 2005 concluding that the methods were not torture if used under strict rules; all the memos were later withdrawn. News organizations have wrestled with whether to label the brutal methods unequivocally as torture in the face of some government officials’ claims that they were not.

In addition, the United States is a signatory to the international Convention Against Torture, which requires the prompt investigation of allegations of torture and the compensation of its victims.

Like the still-secret Senate interrogation report, the Constitution Project study was initiated after President Obama decided in 2009 not to support a national commission to investigate the post-9/11 counterterrorism programs, as proposed by Senator Patrick J. Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, and others. Mr. Obama said then that he wanted to “look forward, not backward.” Aides have said he feared that his own policy agenda might get sidetracked in a battle over his predecessor’s programs.

The panel studied the treatment of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, in Afghanistan and Iraq, and at the C.I.A’s secret prisons. Staff members, including the executive director, Neil A. Lewis, a former reporter for The New York Times, traveled to multiple detention sites and interviewed dozens of former American and foreign officials, as well as former detainees.

Mr. Hutchinson, who served in the Bush administration as chief of the Drug Enforcement Administration and under secretary of the Department of Homeland Security, said he “took convincing” on the torture issue. But after the panel’s nearly two years of research, he said he had no doubts about what the United States did.

“This has not been an easy inquiry for me, because I know many of the players,” Mr. Hutchinson said in an interview. He said he thought everyone involved in decisions, from Mr. Bush down, had acted in good faith, in a desperate effort to try to prevent more attacks.

“But I just think we learn from history,” Mr. Hutchinson said. “It’s incredibly important to have an accurate account not just of what happened but of how decisions were made.”

He added, “The United States has a historic and unique character, and part of that character is that we do not torture.”

The panel found that the United States violated its international legal obligations by engineering “enforced disappearances” and secret detentions. It questions recidivism figures published by the Defense Intelligence Agency for Guantánamo detainees who have been released, saying they conflict with independent reviews.

It describes in detail the ethical compromise of government lawyers who offered “acrobatic” advice to justify brutal interrogations and medical professionals who helped direct and monitor them. And it reveals an internal debate at the International Committee of the Red Cross over whether the organization should speak publicly about American abuses; advocates of going public lost the fight, delaying public exposure for months, the report finds.

Mr. Jones, a former ambassador to Mexico, noted that his panel called for the release of a declassified version of the Senate report and said he believed that the two reports, one based on documents and the other largely on interviews, would complement each other in documenting what he called a grave series of policy errors.

“I had not recognized the depths of torture in some cases,” Mr. Jones said. “We lost our compass.”

While the Constitution Project report covers mainly the Bush years, it is critical of some Obama administration policies, especially what it calls excessive secrecy. It says that keeping the details of rendition and torture from the public “cannot continue to be justified on the basis of national security” and urges the administration to stop citing state secrets to block lawsuits by former detainees.

The report calls for the revision of the Army Field Manual on interrogation to eliminate Appendix M, which it says would permit an interrogation for 40 consecutive hours, and to restore an explicit ban on stress positions and sleep manipulation.

The core of the report, however, may be an appendix: a detailed 22-page legal and historical analysis that explains why the task force concluded that what the United States did was torture. It offers dozens of legal cases in which similar treatment was prosecuted in the United States or denounced as torture by American officials when used by other countries.

The report compares the torture of detainees to the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. “What was once generally taken to be understandable and justifiable behavior,” the report says, “can later become a case of historical regret.”
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:38 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dave View Post
If it saved American lives, I really do not give a shit.
It doesn't appear to have done so....
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #47
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So, stop what we are doing, and hope that the radical Islamists stop as well? A terrorist "time out" so to speak?
Well for one we could stop creating these groups that later turn on us and have all the info they need on how to attack us. Blowback seems to be a bitch.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
Well for one we could stop creating these groups that later turn on us and have all the info they need on how to attack us. Blowback seems to be a bitch.
I'm sorry, which groups did we create?
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by WhawhaWhat View Post
Do a quick google search on where our drone strikes have been. Then try to remember who the people are that hate us the most
Drones also tend to have collateral damage. Me; I'd rather have a conspirator tortured thus acquiring information that will eventually take out the targeted bad guy(s) rather than take out the side of a building with a drone strike taking out all sorts of people who had nothing to do with targeted terrorist.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:43 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I'm sorry, which groups did we create?
Al Qaeda? Did you forget?
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by KILLER_CLOWN View Post
Al Qaeda? Did you forget?
We didn't create Al Qaeda.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:45 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
We didn't create Al Qaeda.
I'm not going over this again with you, seriously Donger? (I did anyway)

Are you referring to yourself as from England?



Front row, from left: Major Gen. Hamid Gul, director general of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI), Director of Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Willian Webster; Deputy Director for Operations Clair George; an ISI colonel; and senior CIA official, Milt Bearden at a Mujahideen training camp in North-West Frontier Province of Pakistan in 1987. (source RAWA)



Ronald Reagan meets Afghan Mujahideen Commanders at the White House in 1985 (Reagan Archives)

We Created Al Qaeda to Fight the Soviets in Afghanistan

Jimmy Carter’s National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski admitted on CNN that the U.S. organized and supported Bin Laden and the other originators of “Al Qaeda” in the 1970s to fight the Soviets.

Brzezinski told Al Qaeda’s forefathers – the Mujahadin:

We know of their deep belief in god – that they’re confident that their struggle will succeed. That land over – there is yours – and you’ll go back to it some day, because your fight will prevail, and you’ll have your homes, your mosques, back again, because your cause is right, and god is on your side.

http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/coldw...zezinski1.html

http://www.thenation.com/article/blowback-prequel





MSNBC reported in 1998: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340101/#.UEaKb6BFbKc

As his unclassified CIA biography states, bin Laden left Saudi Arabia to fight the Soviet army in Afghanistan after Moscow’s invasion in 1979. By 1984, he was running a front organization known as Maktab al-Khidamar – the MAK – which funneled money, arms and fighters from the outside world into the Afghan war.

What the CIA bio conveniently fails to specify (in its unclassified form, at least) is that the MAK was nurtured by Pakistan’s state security services, the Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, the CIA’s primary conduit for conducting the covert war against Moscow’s occupation.

***

The CIA, concerned about the factionalism of Afghanistan … found that Arab zealots who flocked to aid the Afghans were easier to “read” than the rivalry-ridden natives. While the Arab volunteers might well prove troublesome later, the agency reasoned, they at least were one-dimensionally anti-Soviet for now. So bin Laden, along with a small group of Islamic militants from Egypt, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria and Palestinian refugee camps all over the Middle East, became the “reliable” partners of the CIA in its war against Moscow.

***

To this day, those involved in the decision to give the Afghan rebels access to a fortune in covert funding and top-level combat weaponry continue to defend that move in the context of the Cold War. Sen. Orrin Hatch, a senior Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee making those decisions, told my colleague Robert Windrem that he would make the same call again today even knowing what bin Laden would do subsequently. “It was worth it,” he said.

“Those were very important, pivotal matters that played an important role in the downfall of the Soviet Union,” he said.

more here if you want more... http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/...ed-to-911.html
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:53 PM   #53
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I know that we assisted and supported the Mujahadin. How exactly do you get from that fact to "We created Al Qaeda"?
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:54 PM   #54
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I know that we assisted and supported the Mujahadin. How exactly do you get from that fact to "We created Al Qaeda"?
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:56 PM   #55
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Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer that.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:00 PM   #56
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The US did not create Al Qaeda, but it did provide training and arms for the parties that formed it. It also immediately cut off aid and support for Afghanistan after the proxy war ended, which allowed the lowest common denominator to fill the power vacuum.

Furthermore, the US was not as diligent as it could or should have been in the disbursement of aid and weapons to the Mujihadeen. We funneled money through the ISI, who then gave it to the craziest of crazies, rather than more moderate and capable soldiers and leaders like Ahmad Shah Massoud.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
The US did not create Al Qaeda, but it did provide training and arms for the parties that formed it. It also immediately cut off aid and support for Afghanistan after the proxy war ended, which allowed the lowest common denominator to fill the power vacuum.

Furthermore, the US was not as diligent as it could or should have been in the disbursement of aid and weapons to the Mujihadeen. We funneled money through the ISI, who then gave it to the craziest of crazies, rather than more moderate and capable soldiers and leaders like Ahmad Shah Massoud.
Indeed. A very simple "the enemy of mine enemy is my friend" scenario.

I suppose we should have either directly engaged the Soviets. Or done nothing.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:11 PM   #58
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Indeed. A very simple "the enemy of mine enemy is my friend" scenario.

I suppose we should have either directly engaged the Soviets. Or done nothing.
We probably should have done nothing. The Soviets only entered that country because the despot in Kabul was losing control and begged them to come in. It was only after they realized that Amin was a nutjob (and possibly tied to the West after killing Taraki) that they actually felt compelled to invade properly.

However, once we decided to commit to help, we should have stayed around to build a semblance of infrastructure and government, because there were capable leaders present.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:06 PM   #59
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Yeah, I didn't think you'd answer that.
Without our help they would probably have died off during the cold war.
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:18 PM   #60
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Do a quick google search on where our drone strikes have been. Then try to remember who the people are that hate us the most.

Also do a quick google search on where the CIA kidnappings have been and try to remember who these civilized countries are that "don't have a problem with us".
I haven't gone through this exercise yet, but I hope our drone strikes occur in the places where people hate us the most. I wouldn't want to rain death down on our friends.
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"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
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