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Old 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM  
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And...Then Rand Paul Did Something Foolish

Rand Paul Introduces ‘Life at Conception Act’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...onception-act/
Kentucky Senator Rand Paul on Thursday introduced the “Life At Conception Act,” saying that the “right to life is guaranteed to all Americans.”

“I plan to ensure this is upheld,” the Republican senator added.

“Sen. Paul introduced S.583, a bill that would implement equal protection under the 14th Amendment for the right to life of each born and unborn human,” the senator’s office said, per a press release.

“This legislation does not amend or interpret the Constitution, but simply relies on the 14th Amendment, which specifically authorizes Congress to enforce its provisions,” his office adds.

Here is what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment states:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The bill has 15 cosponsors (all Republican) including Sens. John Barrasso (Wyo.), John Boozman (Ark.), Richard Burr (N.C.), Daniel Coats (Ind.), Thomas Coburn (Okla.), Michael Enzi (Wyo.), Deb Fischer (Neb.), Charles “Chuck” Grassley (Iowa), John Hoeven (N.D.), James “Jim” Inhofe (Okla.), Mike Johanns (Neb.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), James Risch (Idaho), John Thune (S.D.), and Roger Wicker (Miss.)

“The Life at Conception Act legislatively declares what most Americans believe and what science has long known — that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection,” Sen. Paul said.

“The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” he added.





Senator Rand PaulVerified account@SenRandPaul Introduced Life at Conception Act. The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans & I plan to ensure this is upheld.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:34 PM   #241
mcan mcan is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Either you're a real bad communicator or you're also saying that your view, that a zygote isn't a human being, is the most common sense thing you've ever believed. That's what I'm criticizing.
Why should I consider a zygote a human being? Please give me your view. Convince me. I'm really, honestly willing to listen. While you're at it, please tell me why my analogy that a tadpole is NOT a frog, is not a good analogy... Or if i'm suffering from the same type/category fallacy with the tadpole/frog, please explain to me how a tadpole is, in fact, a frog.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:35 PM   #242
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I'm going to chew on this type/catagory argument for awhile. My intuition tells me that a pregnancy is the process by which a human being is created. You're saying that intercourse is the process by which a human being is created. I'd like to take my time and evaluate my intuition and come up with a decent argument both ways. I'd appreciate if you did the same. Fair?
Well, that's good. But by thing I mean a whole new category of species...not that old man or teen are the same thing as in a new phase of one's life. That's just another type or category of thing. They are different categories.

No, not intercourse since that doesn't always result in fertilization. It's created aka conceived at fertilization. It just grows and changes but still has ALL the DNA of a complete and unique human.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:35 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Why should I consider a zygote a human being? Please give me your view. Convince me. I'm really, honestly willing to listen. While you're at it, please tell me why my analogy that a tadpole is NOT a frog, is not a good analogy... Or if i'm suffering from the same type/category fallacy with the tadpole/frog, please explain to me how a tadpole is, in fact, a frog.
It's a human life in an early phase of its life.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:36 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, this is exactly the reason why some have been up in arms about it, why it was illegal in many states, why many disagree with Roe v Wade. Ultimately, it boils down to whether one sees it as a human life or not.

If its' not dead, it's alive. If it's not a toad or any other species then part the species called homo sapiens and/or part of the human race.

Take a look at that BioEthics article.


I've heard that argument a bunch of times and I've taken quite a few bioethics classes and read many articles. But I'll go back and read this one as well.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:40 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, that's good. But by thing I mean a whole new category of species...not that old man or teen are the same thing as in a new phase of one's life.
No, not intercourse since that doesn't always result in fertilization. It's created aka conceived at fertilization. It just grows and changes but still has ALL the DNA of a complete and unique human.


i just don't think that is strong enough to make a clump of cells a 'human being' worthy of rights and equal protection under the law. That seems VERY counter intuitive. Our conception of a what makes a "human being" is something very different. nothing that looks like caviar should be called a human being, imo. Just like we shouldn't look at a tadpole and call it a frog.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:44 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post

If its' not dead, it's alive. If it's not a toad or any other species then part the species called homo sapiens and/or part of the human race.

If it's not dead, it's alive.

This is interesting. Seems true on it's face, but there are many different scales of "life." If I chop off my finger and lay it on a plate, technically the cells in my finger are still alive, and have all of my DNA, and satisfy ALL the qualities that you proposed were necessary for the distinction "human being."

But we know, through the common sense, smell test that my severed finger isn't a human being.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:51 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Why should I consider a zygote a human being? Please give me your view. Convince me. I'm really, honestly willing to listen. While you're at it, please tell me why my analogy that a tadpole is NOT a frog, is not a good analogy... Or if i'm suffering from the same type/category fallacy with the tadpole/frog, please explain to me how a tadpole is, in fact, a frog.
I don't care whether you consider a zygote a human being or not. I'm objecting to your "my opinion is superior, from a common sense point of view, to anyone else's" perspective. I'm not religious at all and I'm agnostic about this question. The only reason I'd tend to support the life-begins-at-conception pov is because it's a bright line and because it respects people who view abortion as murder. When I balance the heartfelt beliefs of the pro-life side (it's a human being!) with the heartfelt beliefs of the pro-choice side (it's the woman's body!), I find the former to be a stronger and more profound interest than the latter. In the end though, I'm OK with the will of the majority, either way.

BTW, humans don't stop transforming at birth. Maybe we shouldn't consider them a human being until puberty.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:54 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Why should I consider a zygote a human being? Please give me your view. Convince me. I'm really, honestly willing to listen. While you're at it, please tell me why my analogy that a tadpole is NOT a frog, is not a good analogy... Or if i'm suffering from the same type/category fallacy with the tadpole/frog, please explain to me how a tadpole is, in fact, a frog.
A tadpole is a frog, it is a juvenile frog. The tadpole and frog are genetically the same. The tadpole hasn't fully grown into a frog. Just as a zygote is a human that hasn't fully grown yet.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:01 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
If it's not dead, it's alive.

This is interesting. Seems true on it's face, but there are many different scales of "life." If I chop off my finger and lay it on a plate, technically the cells in my finger are still alive, and have all of my DNA, and satisfy ALL the qualities that you proposed were necessary for the distinction "human being."

But we know, through the common sense, smell test that my severed finger isn't a human being.
That's illogical. A severed finger is just a part of a human being. Just because it was severed doesn't make YOU less of a human; nor does it change your DNA into some other species. You simply lost a body part. Regardless, a human finger is still part of the same species. It's part of the human body. It's the same with a three legged pig or dog.

Here's something on caterpillars being butterflies:

Are caterpillars and butterflies the same species?

"Caterpillars are essentially butterflies, and are technically the same species, but in different stages of its life."
Same category of thing—just in different phases.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_caterp...e_same_species
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:03 PM   #250
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If it's not dead, it's alive.

This is interesting. Seems true on it's face, but there are many different scales of "life." If I chop off my finger and lay it on a plate, technically the cells in my finger are still alive, and have all of my DNA, and satisfy ALL the qualities that you proposed were necessary for the distinction "human being."

But we know, through the common sense, smell test that my severed finger isn't a human being.
The cells of your finger are not a complete human life. A single-celled zygote is a complete human life. One day that cell will be a fully grown human being. The cells in your finger will never be a fully grown human being. However, you will not deny that the cells in your finger are part of a human being. If you examined the DNA in your finger, you would be able to identify it as coming from a human. If you examined the DNA of a zygote, you would be able to identify it as coming from a human.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:03 PM   #251
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BTW, humans don't stop transforming at birth. Maybe we shouldn't consider them a human being until puberty.
Unfortunately, some don't. In fact, I'd say they're kind like a boring, but noisy lump for the first 6 months.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:06 PM   #252
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BTW, humans don't stop transforming at birth. Maybe we shouldn't consider them a human being until puberty.
Since he doesn't believe it is a human until it is fully developed, how does he distinguish between adolescents (which are obviously not humans by his definition) and post adolescents who remove their pubic hair? Neither pass the eye test.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:18 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Why should I consider a zygote a human being? Please give me your view. Convince me. I'm really, honestly willing to listen. While you're at it, please tell me why my analogy that a tadpole is NOT a frog, is not a good analogy... Or if i'm suffering from the same type/category fallacy with the tadpole/frog, please explain to me how a tadpole is, in fact, a frog.
...a zygote is the cell produced by the union.
...a cell is the structure of organisms
.....an orgnanism is any entity or being.
.....a being is life.
.....life is the universal condition of HUMAN existence.

that's why that doctor needed scissors to severe the spines...to terminate LIFE.

you've already stated your own religious bias concerning this matter earlier in the thread.

THAT, IMO, is your motivation.


pretty sure you aren't going to go up and punch a pregnant woman in the stomach, using "it isn't human" as validation for your actions.

this is ultimately what this boils down to..people not wanting to be held accountable for their actions.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:22 PM   #254
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.

pretty sure you aren't going to go up and punch a pregnant woman in the stomach, using "it isn't human" as validation for your actions.

this is ultimately what this boils down to..people not wanting to be held accountable for their actions.
Which brings me to murder cases of pregnant woman being considered two murders. Scott Peterson was convicted of double murder. Why?

Sure seems like a double standard.
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Old 03-20-2013, 04:26 PM   #255
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You've got to the heart of the issue. Lots and lots of philosophers have been debating this very subject for thousands of years in many many applications, and I believe this concept is the heart of just about EVERY major divisive issue.
Link?

BTW science is not philosophy. Philosophy can get circular and is more subjective than science. It's closely related to religion.
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