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Old 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM  
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And...Then Rand Paul Did Something Foolish

Rand Paul Introduces ‘Life at Conception Act’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...onception-act/
Kentucky Senator Rand Paul on Thursday introduced the “Life At Conception Act,” saying that the “right to life is guaranteed to all Americans.”

“I plan to ensure this is upheld,” the Republican senator added.

“Sen. Paul introduced S.583, a bill that would implement equal protection under the 14th Amendment for the right to life of each born and unborn human,” the senator’s office said, per a press release.

“This legislation does not amend or interpret the Constitution, but simply relies on the 14th Amendment, which specifically authorizes Congress to enforce its provisions,” his office adds.

Here is what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment states:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The bill has 15 cosponsors (all Republican) including Sens. John Barrasso (Wyo.), John Boozman (Ark.), Richard Burr (N.C.), Daniel Coats (Ind.), Thomas Coburn (Okla.), Michael Enzi (Wyo.), Deb Fischer (Neb.), Charles “Chuck” Grassley (Iowa), John Hoeven (N.D.), James “Jim” Inhofe (Okla.), Mike Johanns (Neb.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), James Risch (Idaho), John Thune (S.D.), and Roger Wicker (Miss.)

“The Life at Conception Act legislatively declares what most Americans believe and what science has long known — that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection,” Sen. Paul said.

“The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” he added.





Senator Rand PaulVerified account@SenRandPaul Introduced Life at Conception Act. The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans & I plan to ensure this is upheld.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:03 PM   #226
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mcan, I have a question. We're you involved in one?
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:03 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Even your own quote mining contradicts itself. If it's already a human being, then it doesn't NEED development. It just needs maturation.

But it isn't a human being. Anymore than paint is a painting, or ink is a tattoo. This is patently obvious. If something is DEVELOPING into something else, it is NOT YET that other thing.
To be clear, I am AGAINST abortion after the point when a fetus has developed enough that we should call it a human being.

I just think it's absurd to say that point is immediately, and probably a little short sighted to say that point is early. I think a lot of people might consider halfway a decent point, and I'd be okay with that. 2/3rds seems a little more logical, but as I pointed out earlier, logic can't really tackle this one... We just have to come together and declare it using some common sense.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:06 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
I'm exactly saying that there is NO proof. That's my whole point. But if I showed you a zygote in a microscope and you said "oh yeah, that's a human being" than you clearly have a bias that isn't coming from the pure smell/eye test.

A hairbrush looks more like a human being than a zygote.
As if the shape of an object is all that matters. And no, that's not your whole point because if it was, you wouldn't keep insisting that your definition is pure common sense and denigrating other opinions as unnecessarily biased.

And you keep denying what you're really saying, so I'll quote it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
And a fertilized egg is NOT a human being... YET. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any reason for a pregnancy. This is the most common sense thing I've ever said in my whole life
False, unless you just never say anything that's common sense.

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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
That wig of hair is NOT a human being, and neither is a fertilized egg. This is as close to knowledge (using the smell test) that you can get.
Again, an assertion of "knowledge" that isn't really knowledge. It's just your opinion, friend. It's not nearly as close to knowledge as the idea that you will someday die. Or that fire is hot.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:09 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
mcan, I have a question. We're you involved in one?
No, I have never been party to one, nor do I ever intend to be. I have purchased a day after pill for somebody when a condom slipped, just to ease their mind... But there was never any reason to believe anything happened.

All of that is inconsequential though. My beliefs on abortion were TOLD to me by my church when I was religious. That doesn't make them wrong, that just means that my beliefs weren't founded on anything other than dogma at the time. As it were, my church also told me that politeness and humility and cleanliness were virtues... I'm no longer religious, but after I left the church and reevaluated my positions on politeness and humility and cleanliness, I decided those were good things and kept those. So, it's not like I'm just 'going against the religious people' for the sake of it.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:12 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
As if the shape of an object is all that matters. And no, that's not your whole point because if it was, you wouldn't keep insisting that your definition is pure common sense and denigrating other opinions as unnecessarily biased.

And you keep denying what you're really saying, so I'll quote it:



False, unless you just never say anything that's common sense.



Again, an assertion of "knowledge" that isn't really knowledge. It's just your opinion, friend. It's not nearly as close to knowledge as the idea that you will someday die. Or that fire is hot.

And if you were listening at all to a word I said, you'd quit accusing me of coming up with a definition. I haven't, and have said repeatedly that's an impossible task in this regard. (teleological definitions of "human being" repeatedly fail).

I'm making a common sense appeal to DECLARING (arbitrarily) a point at which human beings develop from human fetuses.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:14 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
No, I have never been party to one, nor do I ever intend to be. I have purchased a day after pill for somebody when a condom slipped, just to ease their mind... But there was never any reason to believe anything happened.

All of that is inconsequential though. My beliefs on abortion were TOLD to me by my church when I was religious. That doesn't make them wrong, that just means that my beliefs weren't founded on anything other than dogma at the time. As it were, my church also told me that politeness and humility and cleanliness were virtues... I'm no longer religious, but after I left the church and reevaluated my positions on politeness and humility and cleanliness, I decided those were good things and kept those. So, it's not like I'm just 'going against the religious people' for the sake of it.
I don't think it's inconsequential. I asked because those who have, are in the strongest denial because if they admitted otherwise, they'd have a hard time coming to grips with what they've done so they push it out of their minds. In fact, some of the ones that get the nastiest about this topic is a sign that its true. ( This is not in reference to you. But I've seen this...and I've seen eventual admissions even that it was an act of aggression.)

On a policy basis, I think this is a state issue. Not a national issue. But I think it's a policy that harms...because it makes us all less safe as the boundaries and taboos are removed on letting individuals decide who shall live and who shall die. It cheapens life. Such ideas are progressing along this line already.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:15 PM   #232
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A
I'm making a common sense appeal to DECLARING (arbitrarily) a point at which human beings develop from human fetuses.
You don't get to play God or some all knowing being who decides who can live or die though. It's not for man to decide. That
is a dangerous trend, imo.Let nature takes it's course per natural law.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:16 PM   #233
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What I AM doing, is asserting that a fertilized egg is not a human being based on THIS logic, which I think is pretty open and shut.


If a thing becomes another thing due to a process, then before that process starts, the first thing is by definition not YET the second thing.


This is impossible to deny. You might say that this doesn't apply to human development, and I'm willing to listen to that argument, but nobody has even come close to approaching the argument that way.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:19 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
What I AM doing, is asserting that a fertilized egg is not a human being based on THIS logic, which I think is pretty open and shut.


If a thing becomes another thing due to a process, then before that process starts, the first thing is by definition not YET the second thing.


This is impossible to deny. You might say that this doesn't apply to human development, and I'm willing to listen to that argument, but nobody has even come close to approaching the argument that way.
It's NOT a matter of logic. It's a matter of scientific fact. Identifying a fact vs an opinion is important in logic. Simply calling it what you want to suit your position is bias.
You can just look up basic definitions of the word life and human. I changed my view from pro-choice to pro-life based on the science of embryology.

It is NOT becoming "another thing." It is the same thing—just a different phase of the same thing. We change but we are still humans. We even change mentally as we gain experience in life. Is a teen another thing than when it was a toddler? No. Is an old man another thing at age 70, than he was as a young adult? No. This is where you have category of things confused.

It is impossible NOT to deny it is a human life.

It is DENIAL to say as you say.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:20 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I don't think it's inconsequential. I asked because those who have, are in the strongest denial because if they admitted otherwise, they'd have a hard time coming to grips with what they've done so they push it out of their minds. In fact, some of the ones that get the nastiest about this topic is a sign that its true. ( This is not in reference to you. But I've seen this...and I've seen eventual admissions even that it was an act of aggression.)

On a policy basis, I think this is a state issue. Not a national issue. But I think it's a policy that harms...because it makes us all less safe as the boundaries and taboos are removed on letting individuals decide who shall live and who shall die. It cheapens life. Such ideas are progressing along this line already.


I admire your conviction, I really do. And if I thought for a second that babies were being murdered, I'd be up in arms about it. I want human beings to enjoy protection under law.

I do think i have a pretty open and shut case though that a fertilized egg is NOT a human being. Not because I have a good definition for "human being" but because logic tells me that if a fertilized egg WERE a human being, there would be no need for a process to turn it into a human being.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:23 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
I admire your conviction, I really do. And if I thought for a second that babies were being murdered, I'd be up in arms about it. I want human beings to enjoy protection under law.

I do think i have a pretty open and shut case though that a fertilized egg is NOT a human being. Not because I have a good definition for "human being" but because logic tells me that if a fertilized egg WERE a human being, there would be no need for a process to turn it into a human being.
If it were open and shut, then embryologists would have proven your side. You have categories of things confused and you call something what you want when it isn't that.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:26 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
And if you were listening at all to a word I said, you'd quit accusing me of coming up with a definition. I haven't, and have said repeatedly that's an impossible task in this regard. (teleological definitions of "human being" repeatedly fail).

I'm making a common sense appeal to DECLARING (arbitrarily) a point at which human beings develop from human fetuses.
Either you're a real bad communicator or you're also saying that your view, that a zygote isn't a human being, is the most common sense thing you've ever believed. That's what I'm criticizing.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:29 PM   #238
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I admire your conviction, I really do. And if I thought for a second that babies were being murdered, I'd be up in arms about it. I want human beings to enjoy protection under law.

I do think i have a pretty open and shut case though that a fertilized egg is NOT a human being. Not because I have a good definition for "human being" but because logic tells me that if a fertilized egg WERE a human being, there would be no need for a process to turn it into a human being.
Logic isn't telling you that. Those are your biases talking.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:32 PM   #239
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It's NOT a matter of logic. It's a matter of scientific fact. Identifying a fact vs an opinion is important in logic. Simply calling it what you want to suit your position is bias.
You can just look up basic definitions of the word life and human. I changed my view from pro-choice to pro-life based on the science of embryology.

It is NOT becoming "another thing." It is the same thing. Is a teen another thing than when it was a toddler? No. Is an old man another thing at age 70, than he was as a young adult? No. This is where you have category of things confused.

It is impossible NOT to deny it is a human life.

It is DENIAL to say as you say.

I'm going to chew on this type/catagory argument for awhile. My intuition tells me that a pregnancy is the process by which a human being is created. You're saying that intercourse is the process by which a human being is created. I'd like to take my time and evaluate my intuition and come up with a decent argument both ways. I'd appreciate if you did the same. Fair?
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:32 PM   #240
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I admire your conviction, I really do. And if I thought for a second that babies were being murdered, I'd be up in arms about it. I want human beings to enjoy protection under law.
Well, this is exactly the reason why some have been up in arms about it, why it was illegal in many states, why many disagree with Roe v Wade. Ultimately, it boils down to whether one sees it as a human life or not.

If its' not dead, it's alive. If it's not a toad or any other species then part the species called homo sapiens and/or part of the human race.

Take a look at that BioEthics article.
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This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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