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Old 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM  
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And...Then Rand Paul Did Something Foolish

Rand Paul Introduces ‘Life at Conception Act’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...onception-act/
Kentucky Senator Rand Paul on Thursday introduced the “Life At Conception Act,” saying that the “right to life is guaranteed to all Americans.”

“I plan to ensure this is upheld,” the Republican senator added.

“Sen. Paul introduced S.583, a bill that would implement equal protection under the 14th Amendment for the right to life of each born and unborn human,” the senator’s office said, per a press release.

“This legislation does not amend or interpret the Constitution, but simply relies on the 14th Amendment, which specifically authorizes Congress to enforce its provisions,” his office adds.

Here is what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment states:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The bill has 15 cosponsors (all Republican) including Sens. John Barrasso (Wyo.), John Boozman (Ark.), Richard Burr (N.C.), Daniel Coats (Ind.), Thomas Coburn (Okla.), Michael Enzi (Wyo.), Deb Fischer (Neb.), Charles “Chuck” Grassley (Iowa), John Hoeven (N.D.), James “Jim” Inhofe (Okla.), Mike Johanns (Neb.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), James Risch (Idaho), John Thune (S.D.), and Roger Wicker (Miss.)

“The Life at Conception Act legislatively declares what most Americans believe and what science has long known — that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection,” Sen. Paul said.

“The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” he added.





Senator Rand PaulVerified account@SenRandPaul Introduced Life at Conception Act. The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans & I plan to ensure this is upheld.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:44 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
i guess they should find a woman that wants to keep their baby?

at least that's what i did...
How many times does a pregnancy occur where nobody was planning on it? Maybe all of the sudden that the guy is faced with the news, he decides that he wants this? Why does he not get a choice in the matter? The kid is half his after all.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:54 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
first, it's not a human body, from a legal point of view...

my personal opinion is that it is at some point, and the courts have chosen viability as the measure...

it's arbitrary but as good as any other measure that we have at this point...

and i'm not sure about the staying alive with the aid of machines part; that wasn't the law thirty years ago but i haven't kept up...

my personal opinion is that the whole deal is up to the woman and her doctor, but that's not a mainstream opinion by any means...

since almost all abortions are performed very early in the pregnancy, the benchmark of viability could change as a result of scientific and technical advances without significantly reducing the number of abortions overall...

I was poorly giving an example of a person who is on life support. Say a respirator or the like. Someone who cannot care for themselves, and must be nurtured and cared for. The viability argument is a very slippery slope. In fact let's go down it a bit further, shall we? But now back to the youngsters. A new born has no way of sustaining itself even though it has left the womb. Should we be allowed to kill it if we decide this whole late night crying, feeding, diaper changing baby thing really is more of an inconvenience than we wish to put up with?

The viability argument is a losing one for anyone that cares to employee it.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:58 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
How many times does a pregnancy occur where nobody was planning on it? Maybe all of the sudden that the guy is faced with the news, he decides that he wants this? Why does he not get a choice in the matter? The kid is half his after all.
the law has determined that the prospective father has no more rights with regard to an abortion than the state does; that is, until viability or thereabouts the fetus has no legal status and the state can't prohibit the abortion nor can a father stop it...

given my preference for the woman and her doctor making the decision it should be no surprise that this arrangement is fine with me...



half a fetus does not a child make?

sure it sucks for the father, but there is no practical alternative that wouldn't force the woman to endure the pregnancy and delivery against her will...
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:06 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
What about men who want to become fathers and keep the baby? You realize they have no say don't you?
You raise a good point. There really are a lot conflicting "right" viewpoints that speak specifically to this issue. It's something I'm going to have to think about before I can give an opinion.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:10 PM   #200
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So will the Left agree to ban late term abortions? Anyone know the answer to this?
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:10 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
I was poorly giving an example of a person who is on life support. Say a respirator or the like. Someone who cannot care for themselves, and must be nurtured and cared for. The viability argument is a very slippery slope. In fact let's go down it a bit further, shall we? But now back to the youngsters. A new born has no way of sustaining itself even though it has left the womb. Should we be allowed to kill it if we decide this whole late night crying, feeding, diaper changing baby thing really is more of an inconvenience than we wish to put up with?

The viability argument is a losing one for anyone that cares to employee it.
the viability argument is not necessarily a losing one unless you define it in such a way as to be a surefire loser...

viability has nothing to do with the need for care in order to survive; crying feeding etc. doesn't determine viability, the ability to live is viability...

breathing, having a heart beat and appropriate neurological function determine viability in the sense that if these things can be done outside the womb, the fetus would be alive, that's viability...

whether the fetus can live outside the womb has nothing to do with the fetus' ability to sustain itself and inconvenience is totally irrelevant...
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:13 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
So will the Left agree to ban late term abortions? Anyone know the answer to this?
i think the far left would never agree to any restrictions, much as the far right would never agree to any restrictions on guns...

but, practically speaking, late term abortions are already prohibited, with exceptions...

abortion is only allowed until viability or thereabouts under the dictate of the supremes...
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:49 AM   #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
I was poorly giving an example of a person who is on life support. Say a respirator or the like. Someone who cannot care for themselves, and must be nurtured and cared for. The viability argument is a very slippery slope. In fact let's go down it a bit further, shall we? But now back to the youngsters. A new born has no way of sustaining itself even though it has left the womb. Should we be allowed to kill it if we decide this whole late night crying, feeding, diaper changing baby thing really is more of an inconvenience than we wish to put up with?

The viability argument is a losing one for anyone that cares to employee it.

There are so many many things I want to say about this post...

Again, prenatal development/pregnancy is the PROCESS of creating a human being from a fertilized egg. We ALL want to protect the lives of human beings, but to say that a fertilized egg is a human being is shear lunacy. Can we at least agree on that?

And please don't come back with "it's life." Nobody is debating that a zygote is alive, but we don't give basic "human" rights to everything that is alive. We only give basic human rights to humans. And a fertilized egg is NOT a human being... YET. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any reason for a pregnancy. This is the most common sense thing I've ever said in my whole life, and if we can't agree here, then it is clear that you are shelving your common sense for reasons other than an honest attempt at arriving at the truth. Maybe you just really want your church to be right, or maybe your wife lost a pregnancy and that really hurt you, or whatever the case may be, but if you can't at least admit that a fertilized egg is NOT a human being, then you are bringing baggage to the table that need not be there.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:27 AM   #204
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(cont...)


Given that a zygote is NOT a human being, well that brings up a good question: what exactly IS a human being? Well, here is a rabbit hole of problems. Again, our language is VERY limited when it comes to these kinds of questions. Mostly, our answers tend to be descriptive. Just look at the first paragraph of the Wikipedia entry for "human"

Quote:
Humans (Homo sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only extant species of the genus Homo.[2][3][4] Humans are characterized by having a large brain relative to body size, with a particularly well developed neocortex, prefrontal cortex and temporal lobes, making them capable of abstract reasoning, language, introspection, problem solving and culture through social learning. This mental capability, combined with an adaptation to bipedal locomotion that frees the hands for manipulating objects, has allowed humans to make far greater use of tools than any other species. Humans are the only extant species known to build fires and cook their food, as well as the only known species to clothe themselves and create and use numerous other technologies and arts. The scientific study of humans is the discipline of anthropology.

From a descriptive standpoint, this is very thorough, and accurate. However, from a philosophy standpoint, we can run into some distasteful conclusions: If we stop thinking when we sleep, are we no longer human beings? What about people with abnormalities, are they no longer humans? This is the problem with all teleological attempts to define things. If a clock breaks, does it cease to become a clock, or is still a clock with another trait glommed onto it (broken clock)? If a hamburger rots, is it no longer a hamburger, etc... etc...

But, regardless of the difficulties, we know we are here and we are human. We also know that a fertilized egg is not a human, and that somewhere during the pregnancy process we become human.

Enter now, the dreaded 'sorites paradox' which I talked extensively about a few pages ago. If defining a human were easy, we wouldn't have a paradox.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:19 AM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
There are so many many things I want to say about this post...

Again, prenatal development/pregnancy is the PROCESS of creating a human being from a fertilized egg. We ALL want to protect the lives of human beings, but to say that a fertilized egg is a human being is shear lunacy. Can we at least agree on that?

And please don't come back with "it's life." Nobody is debating that a zygote is alive, but we don't give basic "human" rights to everything that is alive. We only give basic human rights to humans. And a fertilized egg is NOT a human being... YET. Otherwise, there wouldn't be any reason for a pregnancy. This is the most common sense thing I've ever said in my whole life, and if we can't agree here, then it is clear that you are shelving your common sense for reasons other than an honest attempt at arriving at the truth. Maybe you just really want your church to be right, or maybe your wife lost a pregnancy and that really hurt you, or whatever the case may be, but if you can't at least admit that a fertilized egg is NOT a human being, then you are bringing baggage to the table that need not be there.
I don't think it's common sense. It's just an argument over a definition.
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:42 AM   #206
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I agree with mcan's post. At one end you have a single celled organism. At the other end a human being. I don't believe that those two life forms should be treated in the same way in the eyes of the law.
At what point between both ends should the life form be treated the same? And who gets to decide that?

BEP made a great point which either was ignored or misunderstood about the definition of viability.

Who decides viability? Because there is a push by pro-abortionists to declare a baby itself is not viable, and the mother should have the right to terminate the child after it's been born.

Actually they make a good case. I find it abhorent, but it's a legitimate argument based on the argument that pro-abortionists make defending abortion.

Of course now the pro-abortion crowd is going to stop using the word viability to try and distance themselves from the conclusions that proponents of infanticide are making.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:01 AM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
There are so many many things I want to say about this post...

Again, prenatal development/pregnancy is the PROCESS of creating a human being from a fertilized egg. We ALL want to protect the lives of human beings, but to say that a fertilized egg is a human being is shear lunacy. Can we at least agree on that?
No. Science has always considered it a human life at conception. Particularly BEFORE Roe v Wade decision ( where people are getting this idea it is not a human being or person). Go look at some science books. Better yet embryology books. It is not in the process because it has all the DNA of the whole person. Just because we all look different at different stages of life, or because it's hidden in the womb doesn't make it any less human or alive. Furthermore, the only right being asserted is the right to physically grow and develop which is what life is. No one is demanding it have a full set of rights it has no ability to exercise yet. That takes place at age 18 in most cases.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:53 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
No. Science has always considered it a human life at conception. Particularly BEFORE Roe v Wade decision ( where people are getting this idea it is not a human being or person). Go look at some science books. Better yet embryology books. It is not in the process because it has all the DNA of the whole person. Just because we all look different at different stages of life, or because it's hidden in the womb doesn't make it any less human or alive. Furthermore, the only right being asserted is the right to physically grow and develop which is what life is. No one is demanding it have a full set of rights it has no ability to exercise yet. That takes place at age 18 in most cases.
Well said.
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Old 03-20-2013, 08:59 AM   #209
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We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:56 AM   #210
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We have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Rights bestowed upon us by our Creator.
...in that order exactly.

Constitution re-words it as "life, liberty and property" which we cannot lose without due process.
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