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Old 03-15-2013, 10:28 PM  
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And...Then Rand Paul Did Something Foolish

Rand Paul Introduces ‘Life at Conception Act’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...onception-act/
Kentucky Senator Rand Paul on Thursday introduced the “Life At Conception Act,” saying that the “right to life is guaranteed to all Americans.”

“I plan to ensure this is upheld,” the Republican senator added.

“Sen. Paul introduced S.583, a bill that would implement equal protection under the 14th Amendment for the right to life of each born and unborn human,” the senator’s office said, per a press release.

“This legislation does not amend or interpret the Constitution, but simply relies on the 14th Amendment, which specifically authorizes Congress to enforce its provisions,” his office adds.

Here is what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment states:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The bill has 15 cosponsors (all Republican) including Sens. John Barrasso (Wyo.), John Boozman (Ark.), Richard Burr (N.C.), Daniel Coats (Ind.), Thomas Coburn (Okla.), Michael Enzi (Wyo.), Deb Fischer (Neb.), Charles “Chuck” Grassley (Iowa), John Hoeven (N.D.), James “Jim” Inhofe (Okla.), Mike Johanns (Neb.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), James Risch (Idaho), John Thune (S.D.), and Roger Wicker (Miss.)

“The Life at Conception Act legislatively declares what most Americans believe and what science has long known — that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection,” Sen. Paul said.

“The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” he added.





Senator Rand PaulVerified account@SenRandPaul Introduced Life at Conception Act. The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans & I plan to ensure this is upheld.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf
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Old 03-19-2013, 10:49 AM   #181
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I looked up several other first world countries and didn't really find that much in common and very little to support the idea that viability is more widely accepted than anything else. The time frame I list here is for effectively "on demand" abortions. Most of these countries allow for abortion exceptions later in pregnancy (rape, life of mother, health of mother, etc.).

Canada - No legal restrictions

Portugal - 10 weeks

Germany - First trimester

Sweden - 18 weeks

Switzerland - First trimester

France - 12 weeks

England - 24 weeks
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:59 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
"General worldwide definition" ... if you look at the laws in most first-world countries, viability outside the womb is the chosen point. Most draw this line at or right around 24 weeks (basing this off of research I did about a year ago).

I'm not saying there's a consensus or mandate or group declaration on it. Just basing it on what most first-world countries did when I researched it. 24 weeks was the most common point.

12 weeks is also a big dividing line, in terms of the numbers of abortion performed. If you research worldwide abortion statistics, you're going to see that somewhere around 90 (+/- 1 or 2 points yearly) percent of abortions performed worldwide are performed at or before this mark.

Medically, the chances of survival for a fetus removed from the womb BEFORE 24 weeks are extremely slim (decreasing, obviously, as you get earlier in the pregnancy). At least at this point. As medical science advances, that mark could change.
Viability is the wrong way to think about this issue. It's either alive or dead. Viability has been expanding to infanticide being a reason to kill now.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:43 PM   #183
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By definition, Infanticide is not applicable to abortions.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:25 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Bowser View Post
By definition, Infanticide is not applicable to abortions.
That wasn't my point. My point was people getting to decide who's life is worth living due to something incomplete, wrong with them or whatever reason. Viability, not being perfectly formed or retarded...whatever.

BTW a one year old can't survive on their own either. They are dependent on an adult.
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Old 03-19-2013, 03:28 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
That wasn't my point. My point was people getting to decide who's life is worth living due to something incomplete, wrong with them or whatever reason. Viability, not being perfectly formed or retarded...whatever.

BTW a one year old can't survive on their own either. They are dependent on an adult.
I would tend towards mentation level rather than viability.
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Old 03-19-2013, 05:21 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I would tend towards mentation level rather than viability.
I wouldn't rely on any level except what science has considered to be the beginning of life of a human.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:12 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I wouldn't rely on any level except what science has considered to be the beginning of life of a human.
I agree with mcan's post. At one end you have a single celled organism. At the other end a human being. I don't believe that those two life forms should be treated in the same way in the eyes of the law.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:09 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
i don't know, but my view is a woman should have control over her own body, so that issue doesn't really matter that much to me...

i think abortion should remain legal and safe and should not be unduly restricted by men with a religious agenda...
What about men who want to become fathers and keep the baby? You realize they have no say don't you?
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:14 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by go bowe View Post
actually, no...

a heartbeat does not necessarily equal viability...

if the fetus cannot survive outside the mother's womb, it is not viable and not entitled to any legal protections...

Not picking on you go bowe, this is just the second time I have seen someone say something along these lines. Plus I figure you are more intelligent than the other guy, making it more of a fair fight.

Now, let us take have a little bit of fun with your statement and see what comes of it.....

"if the human body cannot survive with the aide of machines (i.e. an electrical "womb"), it is not viable and not entitled to any legal protections..."
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:22 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
What about men who want to become fathers and keep the baby? You realize they have no say don't you?
Like rapists?

Here's an idea, put your dick into someone that wants to have a baby with you.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:30 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
Like rapists?
WTF are you talking about? That doesn't even make sense.

Quote:
Here's an idea, put your dick into someone that wants to have a baby with you.
Here is just as good an idea: if your a woman don't allow a dick in you unless you are willing to have a baby with the guy.

Seriously, this post was a waste of my time responding to. Not a single understandable point to my original post. I really don't know why I bothered responding. I really don't know why I am still typing..... Post whoring I guess.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:57 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
WTF are you talking about? That doesn't even make sense.
You said "what about men that want to become fathers."

I was saying that if abortion is banned, rape is a good way to become a father when a woman won't willingly have a man's child. Simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
Here is just as good an idea: if your a woman don't allow a dick in you unless you are willing to have a baby with the guy.
We all know how well abstinence works...

And yeah, say she does want to have a kid with the guy, but he doesn't...well tough shit lady...I guess she should have magically known the guy would cut and run.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:34 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
What about men who want to become fathers and keep the baby? You realize they have no say don't you?
i guess they should find a woman that wants to keep their baby?

at least that's what i did...
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:42 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KChiefer View Post
You said "what about men that want to become fathers."

I was saying that if abortion is banned, rape is a good way to become a father when a woman won't willingly have a man's child. Simple as that.
Not really my meaning there guy. I was kind of talking about those accidental pregnancies. Hell, the could never even know. He could never even be given a chance to decide. Where is free choice there?

Quote:
We all know how well abstinence works...

And yeah, say she does want to have a kid with the guy, but he doesn't...well tough shit lady...I guess she should have magically known the guy would cut and run.
That is why they have child support, as woefully imperfect as the system is.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:43 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Raiderhader View Post
Not picking on you go bowe, this is just the second time I have seen someone say something along these lines. Plus I figure you are more intelligent than the other guy, making it more of a fair fight.

Now, let us take have a little bit of fun with your statement and see what comes of it.....

"if the human body cannot survive with the aide of machines (i.e. an electrical "womb"), it is not viable and not entitled to any legal protections..."
first, it's not a human body, from a legal point of view...

my personal opinion is that it is at some point, and the courts have chosen viability as the measure...

it's arbitrary but as good as any other measure that we have at this point...

and i'm not sure about the staying alive with the aid of machines part; that wasn't the law thirty years ago but i haven't kept up...

my personal opinion is that the whole deal is up to the woman and her doctor, but that's not a mainstream opinion by any means...

since almost all abortions are performed very early in the pregnancy, the benchmark of viability could change as a result of scientific and technical advances without significantly reducing the number of abortions overall...
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