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Old 03-15-2013, 09:28 PM  
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And...Then Rand Paul Did Something Foolish

Rand Paul Introduces ‘Life at Conception Act’
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...onception-act/
Kentucky Senator Rand Paul on Thursday introduced the “Life At Conception Act,” saying that the “right to life is guaranteed to all Americans.”

“I plan to ensure this is upheld,” the Republican senator added.

“Sen. Paul introduced S.583, a bill that would implement equal protection under the 14th Amendment for the right to life of each born and unborn human,” the senator’s office said, per a press release.

“This legislation does not amend or interpret the Constitution, but simply relies on the 14th Amendment, which specifically authorizes Congress to enforce its provisions,” his office adds.

Here is what Section 1 of the 14th Amendment states:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The bill has 15 cosponsors (all Republican) including Sens. John Barrasso (Wyo.), John Boozman (Ark.), Richard Burr (N.C.), Daniel Coats (Ind.), Thomas Coburn (Okla.), Michael Enzi (Wyo.), Deb Fischer (Neb.), Charles “Chuck” Grassley (Iowa), John Hoeven (N.D.), James “Jim” Inhofe (Okla.), Mike Johanns (Neb.), Jerry Moran (Kan.), James Risch (Idaho), John Thune (S.D.), and Roger Wicker (Miss.)

“The Life at Conception Act legislatively declares what most Americans believe and what science has long known — that human life begins at the moment of conception, and therefore is entitled to legal protection,” Sen. Paul said.

“The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans in the Declaration of Independence and ensuring this is upheld is the Constitutional duty of all Members of Congress,” he added.





Senator Rand PaulVerified account@SenRandPaul Introduced Life at Conception Act. The right to life is guaranteed to all Americans & I plan to ensure this is upheld.


http://www.paul.senate.gov/files/documents/LCA.pdf
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:18 PM   #166
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While I think the bill SHOULD be defeated, and I consider myself PRO abortion (not just pro choice), my argument is that I do NOT believe that a human fetus is the same as a human baby. I just want to hear somebody tell me a decent argument for conception = baby, and then I'll be on their side.

Respect to the people who wrote this bill also for NAMING the bill what it is about and not trying to slip it passed anybody. Just tell us your stance and have people debate it and vote... But you better bring a pretty decent argument to the table that a zygote is a human being, otherwise you lose.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:25 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
While I think the bill SHOULD be defeated, and I consider myself PRO abortion (not just pro choice), my argument is that I do NOT believe that a human fetus is the same as a human baby. I just want to hear somebody tell me a decent argument for conception = baby, and then I'll be on their side.

Respect to the people who wrote this bill also for NAMING the bill what it is about and not trying to slip it passed anybody. Just tell us your stance and have people debate it and vote... But you better bring a pretty decent argument to the table that a zygote is a human being, otherwise you lose.
That argument can easily be reversed: when is it officially a baby? When I see my children in the ultrasound with real heads, arms, legs, feet, sex organs, and a beating heart, I have to call that my child. The pro-choice movement refuses to define when personhood begins. They refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.


If someone said that conception shouldn't equal a child, I can buy that. But if someone said that it isn't a child even 10 seconds prior to it popping out, I think that's really questionable.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:39 PM   #168
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I don't think we should consider it a child until it can read and write.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:00 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
That argument can easily be reversed: when is it officially a baby? When I see my children in the ultrasound with real heads, arms, legs, feet, sex organs, and a beating heart, I have to call that my child. The pro-choice movement refuses to define when personhood begins. They refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.


If someone said that conception shouldn't equal a child, I can buy that. But if someone said that it isn't a child even 10 seconds prior to it popping out, I think that's really questionable.
You've got to the heart of the issue. Lots and lots of philosophers have been debating this very subject for thousands of years in many many applications, and I believe this concept is the heart of just about EVERY major divisive issue.

THE SORITES PARADOX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox

The problem is with the structure of language, ei: words that have meanings that are clear on either end of a continuum but unclear in middle. It's NOT solvable.

In all of these examples, you'll notice the pattern. Something clear and obviously definable on one end, followed by a process of some sort, then a clearly definable and objective end.

ingredients -------> dinner
injured --------> healed
full head of hair --------> Bald
skinny ----------> fat
young --------> old
zygote --------> human being


The fact is, it's called a paradox because there is no OBJECTIVE way to determine a crossover point. So, saying that pro choice people need to come up with a good argument to convince people where the crossover point is, is like asking if god can create a rock so big he can't carry it. It's a non sense statement with built in paradox.

And SINCE it's a paradox, we just have to make one up. Just like you would't call a box of flour and some veggies in a bag a pizza, you certainly wouldn't call a clump of cells a baby... So, lets use some of these other examples to see how far along the process we USUALLY go before we put in our arbitrary crossover point, and use that as a guide.


Now, I wouldn't call a pizza a pizza until it's consumable at least... Perhaps when its halfway to its desired temperature, before the cheese is melted... Yeah, that's a pizza. Underdone, but it's a pizza. But that's still pretty far along the way. I have to get out all the ingredients, slice the veggies, kneed some dough, make some sauce, put it all together and put it in the oven for a about half the time it would take for a normal pizza, and BAM! We have an underdone pizza. So what, about 2/3rds of the process?

Suppose I cut my finger. At some point, it completely heals (with or without a scar). But most of the time I've got my bandage over it and I say "I have a cut." Maybe a couple days later if its deep, I take the bandage off because the wound has scabbed over. so now I'm walking around for a weekish with a tender scab on my finger. Still not "Healed" but I don't really call it a "cut" anymore. It's a wound, in the process of healing... But also not "healed." But after a bit that scar starts to separate from the new skin underneath, and if you're like me you usually peel that bugger off and it still kiiiiiiinda hurts underneath, but essentially... You're looking at NEW SKIN! Seems like a little further than 2/3rds to me, but now I'm pretty much treating my finger like it's healed.



I know it's arbitrary, but it seems like about 2/3rds of the way through a process is about when it's 'normal' to start drawing lines. So, lets just do that. Let's DEFINE a 3rd trimester pregnancy as a human baby, and stop the squalking...
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:06 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
That argument can easily be reversed: when is it officially a baby? When I see my children in the ultrasound with real heads, arms, legs, feet, sex organs, and a beating heart, I have to call that my child. The pro-choice movement refuses to define when personhood begins. They refuse to even acknowledge the possibility.


If someone said that conception shouldn't equal a child, I can buy that. But if someone said that it isn't a child even 10 seconds prior to it popping out, I think that's really questionable.

the only thing I think is patently OBVIOUS is that one end of the continuum is certainly not the other. People with hair are NOT bald. Skinny people are NOT fat, A jar of peanut butter and loaf of bread is NOT a sandwich, and a zygote is NOT a human being. It's just not. So lets DECIDE when one becomes the other (even though we know in advance that it's not going to be a satisfactory answer due to the PARADOX) and be done with this debate, which takes up FAR too much time in our current political climate.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:26 AM   #171
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Looks like nobody has a counter argument. 20+ minutes on the Planet and nobody has called me a douche... I guess...


I WIN! I SOLVED THE ABORTION PROBLEM!


I'll be taking rep now please and thank you.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:16 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by mcan View Post
Looks like nobody has a counter argument. 20+ minutes on the Planet and nobody has called me a douche... I guess...


I WIN! I SOLVED THE ABORTION PROBLEM!


I'll be taking rep now please and thank you.
I guess you haven't noticed the ****tards with dead fetus signs picketing in front of your house yet.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:43 AM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcan View Post
You've got to the heart of the issue. Lots and lots of philosophers have been debating this very subject for thousands of years in many many applications, and I believe this concept is the heart of just about EVERY major divisive issue.

THE SORITES PARADOX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorites_paradox

The problem is with the structure of language, ei: words that have meanings that are clear on either end of a continuum but unclear in middle. It's NOT solvable.

In all of these examples, you'll notice the pattern. Something clear and obviously definable on one end, followed by a process of some sort, then a clearly definable and objective end.

ingredients -------> dinner
injured --------> healed
full head of hair --------> Bald
skinny ----------> fat
young --------> old
zygote --------> human being


The fact is, it's called a paradox because there is no OBJECTIVE way to determine a crossover point. So, saying that pro choice people need to come up with a good argument to convince people where the crossover point is, is like asking if god can create a rock so big he can't carry it. It's a non sense statement with built in paradox.

And SINCE it's a paradox, we just have to make one up. Just like you would't call a box of flour and some veggies in a bag a pizza, you certainly wouldn't call a clump of cells a baby... So, lets use some of these other examples to see how far along the process we USUALLY go before we put in our arbitrary crossover point, and use that as a guide.


Now, I wouldn't call a pizza a pizza until it's consumable at least... Perhaps when its halfway to its desired temperature, before the cheese is melted... Yeah, that's a pizza. Underdone, but it's a pizza. But that's still pretty far along the way. I have to get out all the ingredients, slice the veggies, kneed some dough, make some sauce, put it all together and put it in the oven for a about half the time it would take for a normal pizza, and BAM! We have an underdone pizza. So what, about 2/3rds of the process?

Suppose I cut my finger. At some point, it completely heals (with or without a scar). But most of the time I've got my bandage over it and I say "I have a cut." Maybe a couple days later if its deep, I take the bandage off because the wound has scabbed over. so now I'm walking around for a weekish with a tender scab on my finger. Still not "Healed" but I don't really call it a "cut" anymore. It's a wound, in the process of healing... But also not "healed." But after a bit that scar starts to separate from the new skin underneath, and if you're like me you usually peel that bugger off and it still kiiiiiiinda hurts underneath, but essentially... You're looking at NEW SKIN! Seems like a little further than 2/3rds to me, but now I'm pretty much treating my finger like it's healed.



I know it's arbitrary, but it seems like about 2/3rds of the way through a process is about when it's 'normal' to start drawing lines. So, lets just do that. Let's DEFINE a 3rd trimester pregnancy as a human baby, and stop the squalking...
Very well-stated argument.

This is why I'm a strong supporter of the current general worldwide definition, which draws the line at the ability of the fetus to survive and grow outside the womb, and allows abortions only in extreme situations after that (life of the mother, non-viable fetus - such as when the brain hasn't developed, etc).
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:52 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duncan_idaho View Post
Very well-stated argument.

This is why I'm a strong supporter of the current general worldwide definition, which draws the line at the ability of the fetus to survive and grow outside the womb, and allows abortions only in extreme situations after that (life of the mother, non-viable fetus - such as when the brain hasn't developed, etc).
Unfortunately, that's not a very well defined line.



Where did you hear that it was the worldwide definition anyway? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard anyone suggest that before and I just randomly looked up the abortion laws in Nigeria and Luxemburg and neither of them use viability as a guidepost. In Nigeria abortions are illegal except to protect the life of the mother and in Luxemburg, abortions are available through the 12th week but after that they can only be obtained to protect the health of the mother.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:02 AM   #175
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The Left will define last-second abortions as "saving the mother's life". They will. Just ask them. They are abortion extremists, just as Todd Akin is.



Will their lapdogs in the media ever ask THEM about THEIR extreme views? Uh huh. Sure.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:04 AM   #176
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Oh, Taco. Where for art thou, Taco? BEP? I've been a Paul supporter for a long time, but this is bullshit. Especially coming from the leader of the Tea Party. Help me understand this.
Rand Paul the leader of the Tea Party? Nope. That was his father. Someone's just trying to rip that label off. Ron Paul is pro life, but says it is a state issue. It is. I believe Ron would support his own state making it illegal. Other than that, I don't see how protecting life is foolish. Afterall, Rand was protecting life when he filibustered over a president being able to take life without due process.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:05 AM   #177
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I don't think we should consider it a child until it can read and write.
No, not until it can vote.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:06 AM   #178
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The majority of the country wants abortion to be legal. It's stupid to even bring it up.
So

Our system is not majority rule based when it comes to fundamental rights such as "life, liberty and property" which are in that order.

Not that I think this is a good move politically.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:07 AM   #179
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On the other hand, if the left, can get away with the incorporation doctrine ( most of which is bogus ) using the 14th Amendment then why can't others?

Something to think about.
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Old 03-19-2013, 09:26 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Unfortunately, that's not a very well defined line.



Where did you hear that it was the worldwide definition anyway? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I've never heard anyone suggest that before and I just randomly looked up the abortion laws in Nigeria and Luxemburg and neither of them use viability as a guidepost. In Nigeria abortions are illegal except to protect the life of the mother and in Luxemburg, abortions are available through the 12th week but after that they can only be obtained to protect the health of the mother.
"General worldwide definition" ... if you look at the laws in most first-world countries, viability outside the womb is the chosen point. Most draw this line at or right around 24 weeks (basing this off of research I did about a year ago).

I'm not saying there's a consensus or mandate or group declaration on it. Just basing it on what most first-world countries did when I researched it. 24 weeks was the most common point.

12 weeks is also a big dividing line, in terms of the numbers of abortion performed. If you research worldwide abortion statistics, you're going to see that somewhere around 90 (+/- 1 or 2 points yearly) percent of abortions performed worldwide are performed at or before this mark.

Medically, the chances of survival for a fetus removed from the womb BEFORE 24 weeks are extremely slim (decreasing, obviously, as you get earlier in the pregnancy). At least at this point. As medical science advances, that mark could change.
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