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Old 12-19-2012, 12:43 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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A gun control law that would actually work?

I'd say so.

A rundown of the idea:
  • A ban on firearms -- rifle or pistol -- that can hold more than six bullets.
  • A ban on firearms with detachable magazines.
Aggressive measures, sure. But one that would considerably slow down future rampages.

I don't know if that'd include buybacks on those kinds of firearms already out in the market, but to piss off the absolute maximum of the anti-gun control folks among us, let's go with that.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...y-work/266342/

A Gun Control Law That Would Actually Work
By Robert Wright
Dec 17 2012, 10:03 AM ET Comment

The AR-15 is getting its fifteen minutes of fame. Whole articles in major newspapers are devoted to the rifle that Adam Lanza used in the Newtown shooting, as the nation begins to debate restoring the ban on "assault weapons."

But the assault weapons issue is a red herring.

First of all, there's no clear and simple definition of an assault weapon, and this fact has in the past led to incoherent regulation. The defunct 1994 assault weapons ban, according to the Wall Street Journal, outlawed "semiautomatic rifles that accepted detachable magazines and possessed at least two other characteristics, including a protruding pistol grip, flash suppressor or threaded barrel or a folding or telescoping stock." Um, how important was it whether the gun Lanza used had a "flash suppressor"? And, by sacrificing that and a few other such features ("protruding pistol grip," etc.), a mass killer gets to keep his detachable magazine, for rapid reloading?

Second, focusing on assault weapons--or even rifles in general--distracts from the important issue of magazine capacity in pistols. It's true that if you had taken away Lanza's AR-15, he wouldn't have had a rifle that could fire 30 rounds without reloading. However, he was also carrying two pistols--a Glock 20 and a Sig Sauer P226--each of which can fire 15 rounds without reloading. And, actually, since two pistols are less conspicuous than a rifle, they're a more effective way to get 30 rounds of continuous fire into lots of public settings.

Imagine the following world, which it's within our power to create: It's illegal to sell or possess a firearm--rifle or pistol--that can hold more than six bullets. And it's illegal to sell or possess a firearm with a detachable magazine. In other words, once a shooter exhausted the six rounds, he couldn't just snap in another six-round magazine; he'd have to put six more bullets in the gun one by one.

In this world, a significant number of those 20 Newtown first graders would almost certainly be alive. Lanza reportedly fired six bullets from his AR-15 just to get inside the locked school. So, in the alternative universe I just described, he would then have to more or less exhaust one of his two pistols to kill the principal and school psychologist he encountered after entering. At that point, as he headed for the classrooms, he'd have six more rapid-fire bullets left, after which he'd have to reload his guns bullet by bullet.

Is there a single legitimate use of firearms that requires more than six rounds of continuous fire? Certainly not hunting. And not any sort of self-defense that's realistically imaginable, unless you've recently antagonized a Mexican drug cartel.

As the gun lobby gears up to battle proposals such as this one, you'll hear a lot about the fact that mass killings are actually a drop in the bucket of total homicides. True. But mass killings take a disproportionate toll on the nation psychologically and spiritually. Thirty individual people dying in isolated assaults in various cities is a horrible thing, but it doesn't terrify our children, and it doesn't turn our schools into bunkers.

The sort of law I'm describing would make lots of current guns illegal. (I actually own one.) So you'd have to phase the law in over a couple of years, and, to overcome political resistance, you might have to compensate gun owners for surrendering newly illegal guns--or for having them altered to comply with the law. And, even then, the resistance would be very, very strong. It might even turn out to be insurmountable. But if the question is "What could we do that would greatly reduce the scale of mass killings while preserving the right of Americans to use firearms for legitimate purposes," this, it seems to me, is a real answer.

Update, 12/17 4:25 p.m.: More than one commenter has noted that most handguns currently manufactured would be illegal under my proposal. True. (As I noted in the final paragraph, I own such a gun.) And on Twitter, @drgitlin has noted something I didn't realize: A revolver, which would be clearly legal under my proposal, can be loaded fairly quickly with a "speedloader." Well, if speedloaders are indeed so speedy that they're the functional equivalent of detachable magazines, they could be banned. And as for the fact that most or all non-revolver pistols would be illegal under my proposal: You'd be surprised how fast gun manufacturers would fill this void by designing semi-automatics that could hold a maximum of six bullets and could only be loaded one bullet at a time. I'm not saying this makes my proposal politically feasible; the number of existing owners of conventional semi-automatic pistols (i.e. semi-automatics with detachable magazines) might create insurmountable resistance to it, as I noted in the final paragraph. Still, governments do have the power to ban things that exist, and in this case creating substitutes that complied with the new law would be very doable. And, even if banning detachable magazines in pistols does prove politically infeasible, that doesn't mean we can't make real progress by doing the politically easier thing of banning all magazines, for both rifles and handguns, that hold more than six bullets. And it's a trivial matter for manufacturers to create magazines that would fit existing guns and comply with that law. In any event, we shouldn't be fooled into thinking that another ban on "assault weapons" is by itself significant progress.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petegz28 View Post
Good thing no one has thought of the idea of a speed-loader for revolvers.

Oh wait....
No Doubt....


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Old 12-19-2012, 03:07 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
That's exactly how many people are viewing the Newtown tragedy though. Gun violence overall is the lowest it's been since the 60s. Technically, the US is safer than it's ever been before.

But yet, we have people saying things like



I hate to sound callous, but the fact that children were involved is the sole reason this is still being discussed.
IM not sure about all that, and I truly mean that in the sense I dont have statistics either way, but I dont remember having all these school, church and mall shootings when I was a kid in the 70s, 80's and since then, til about Columbine
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:08 PM   #108
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:08 PM   #109
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More guns = Less crime
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:11 PM   #110
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More guns = Less crime
Less Raiders fans = less crime
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:11 PM   #111
3rd&48ers 3rd&48ers is offline
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Less Raiders fans = less crime
I agree with that too.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:13 PM   #112
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More nonsense and knee jerk silliness. Lets pass more rules law abiding people have to follow. I am willing to accept background checks and closing the huge gaps where you can buy weapons off the grid. I am willing to require personal gun transactions to be handled through a gun broker who takes a small fee to run backgrounds on the purchaser. Gun and knife shows could be regulated, and penalties for knowingly selling weapons without background checks be severe enough to discourage people from doing it.

All of this will do little to prevent the type of situation that happened. It will however maybe prevent someone who is a risk from buying a gun. I am totally against banning any type of weapon that is legal now. The cold hard facts are criminals and crazy people will continue to break whatever laws that are set in place. Simply look at the states that have the strictest gun laws and the gun crimes that happen regularly in them. I did read a funny and true post today...I have owned guns my whole life and they have killed less people than Ted Kennedy's car~
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:13 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Carlota69 View Post
IM not sure about all that, and I truly mean that in the sense I dont have statistics either way, but I dont remember having all these school, church and mall shootings when I was a kid in the 70s, 80's and since then, til about Columbine
I believe there are 2 reasons for that. The first being the rate of speed information is passed now compared to then and the ease of its passage. I don't necessarily think there's a huge increase in incidents, just more information available on it. The second is the caused by the first. The media parades the killer until he's reached popularity of an epic proportion. For someone who thinks they're an insignificant worthless piece of nothing and all they crave is that rock star status that is a dangerous game. One they're willing to play if they're going to go out anyway.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:14 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Carlota69 View Post
IM not sure about all that, and I truly mean that in the sense I dont have statistics either way, but I dont remember having all these school, church and mall shootings when I was a kid in the 70s, 80's and since then, til about Columbine
There was a really good article posted recently that touched on this. It's a good read and I recommend it. You will learn a few things for sure:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...857424036.html

Quote:
Has the rate of random mass shootings in the United States increased? Over the past 30 years, the answer is definitely yes. It is also true that the total U.S. homicide rate has fallen by over half since 1980, and the gun homicide rate has fallen along with it. Today, Americans are safer from violent crime, including gun homicide, than they have been at any time since the mid-1960s.

Mass shootings, defined as four or more fatalities, fluctuate from year to year, but over the past 30 years there has been no long-term increase or decrease. But "random" mass shootings, such as the horrific crimes last Friday in Newtown, Conn., have increased.

Alan Lankford of the University of Alabama analyzed data from a recent New York Police Department study of "active shooters"—criminals who attempted to murder people in a confined area, where there are lots of people, and who chose at least some victims randomly. Counting only the incidents with at least two casualties, there were 179 such crimes between 1966 and 2010. In the 1980s, there were 18. In the 1990s, there were 54. In the 2000s, there were 87.

If you count only such crimes in which five or more victims were killed, there were six in the 1980s and 19 in the 2000s.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:23 PM   #115
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I believe there are 2 reasons for that. The first being the rate of speed information is passed now compared to then and the ease of its passage. I don't necessarily think there's a huge increase in incidents, just more information available on it. The second is the caused by the first. The media parades the killer until he's reached popularity of an epic proportion. For someone who thinks they're an insignificant worthless piece of nothing and all they crave is that rock star status that is a dangerous game. One they're willing to play if they're going to go out anyway.
Thats fair.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:25 PM   #116
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Most of these gun restriction liberals are people that have never shot or handled a gun before in their life, never gone hunting/target shoot, they're plopped in front on a TV where gun violence and murder is all they see on shows/news reports etc. They're the type of people that would call the cops if they saw you cleaning your gun in the garage.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:31 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Carlota69 View Post
IM not sure about all that, and I truly mean that in the sense I dont have statistics either way, but I dont remember having all these school, church and mall shootings when I was a kid in the 70s, 80's and since then, til about Columbine
I believe mass shootings may have gone up, but gun murders in general have decreased.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:33 PM   #118
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Buybacks on guns, riiiiiiiiiiiiight. Good luck with that one.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:39 PM   #119
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FBI site has some good papers on this. Just started but at the beginning on one titled the "School Shooter" there is no profile that exists. Matches what detective Furhman said on tv.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/school-violence


Quote:
Adolescent violence in general, and homicides in particular, have decreased since l993, but
that hopeful trend has been somewhat obscured in the nationwide wave of concern over school
shootings of the type examined in NCAVC's study. This recent form of adolescent violence is in
fact quite rare. But the sudden, senseless deaths of teenagers and teachers in the middle of a
school day, for no comprehensible reason, is far more shocking and gets far more attention than
the less extreme acts of violence that happen in schools every week.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:40 PM   #120
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Who was going to stop him after he shot the teacher? A Bunch of 6-7 year old children?
He would have been as successful with a 6 shooter and a box of 50 bullets, the kids weren't going to charge him and take him down... He was a piece of shit coward sonofabitch that knew he could do whatever he wanted for as long as he wanted... We are damn lucky he decided to kill himself when he did because he could have killed many many more....
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