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Old 12-16-2012, 11:35 PM  
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Let's research gun violence.

I've said this in a couple other threads, but I don't believe that gun control is going to get any traction in Congress. Some Democrats will push for it, some other Republicans will table it, some pro-gun control folks like myself will cry foul, and yet another Congress will pass without any gun control measures seeing the light of day.

But here's one thing that maybe we can start doing: better educate ourselves on gun violence, so we can stop stabbing in the dark as to what we can better do to mitigate it.

The problem is that for a couple decades now, the government has not been able to produce any information on gun violence because the NRA has been threatening war if Congress failed to choke off all funding for gun-related research.

The CDC and NIH used to conduct research for decades, but around the time of the late 90s, the NRA became so powerful it was able to prevent these agencies from granting funds to researchers on those topics. McClatchy DC:

Quote:
The CDC and NIH award billions in grants. They fund research into cancer, brain injury, tobacco use, obesity, AIDS, abortion, hearing loss, allergies, infectious diseases, back pain and virtually everything else related to human health. But gun violence is the one area that carries that specific language. The effect has been to limit federal funding into research that could be used to shape policy.
This is irresponsible. We pass hundreds of gun-related laws across the country every few years. Like all laws, we should be able to research the impact of the laws we pass, so we can make decisions based on more than pure ideology.

Anyway, there's a ton of stories on this, but here's a really good one from last year in the Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us...anted=all&_r=0

N.R.A. Stymies Firearms Research, Scientists Say
By MICHAEL LUO
Published: January 25, 2011

In the wake of the shootings in Tucson, the familiar questions inevitably resurfaced: Are communities where more people carry guns safer or less safe? Does the availability of high-capacity magazines increase deaths? Do more rigorous background checks make a difference?

The reality is that even these and other basic questions cannot be fully answered, because not enough research has been done. And there is a reason for that. Scientists in the field and former officials with the government agency that used to finance the great bulk of this research say the influence of the National Rife Association has all but choked off money for such work.

“We’ve been stopped from answering the basic questions,” said Mark Rosenberg, former director of the National Center for Injury Control and Prevention, part of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which was for about a decade the leading source of financing for firearms research.

Chris Cox, the N.R.A.’s chief lobbyist, said his group had not tried to squelch genuine scientific inquiries, just politically slanted ones.

“Our concern is not with legitimate medical science,” Mr. Cox said. “Our concern is they were promoting the idea that gun ownership was a disease that needed to be eradicated.”

The amount of money available today for studying the impact of firearms is a fraction of what it was in the mid-1990s, and the number of scientists toiling in the field has dwindled to just a handful as a result, researchers say.

The dearth of money can be traced in large measure to a clash between public health scientists and the N.R.A. in the mid-1990s. At the time, Dr. Rosenberg and others at the C.D.C. were becoming increasingly assertive about the importance of studying gun-related injuries and deaths as a public health phenomenon, financing studies that found, for example, having a gun in the house, rather than conferring protection, significantly increased the risk of homicide by a family member or intimate acquaintance.

Alarmed, the N.R.A. and its allies on Capitol Hill fought back. The injury center was guilty of “putting out papers that were really political opinion masquerading as medical science,” said Mr. Cox, who also worked on this issue for the N.R.A. more than a decade ago.

Initially, pro-gun lawmakers sought to eliminate the injury center completely, arguing that its work was “redundant” and reflected a political agenda. When that failed, they turned to the appropriations process. In 1996, Representative Jay Dickey, Republican of Arkansas, succeeded in pushing through an amendment that stripped $2.6 million from the disease control centers’ budget, the very amount it had spent on firearms-related research the year before.

“It’s really simple with me,” Mr. Dickey, 71 and now retired, said in a telephone interview. “We have the right to bear arms because of the threat of government taking over the freedoms that we have.”

The Senate later restored the money but designated it for research on traumatic brain injury. Language was also inserted into the centers’ appropriations bill that remains in place today: “None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”

The prohibition is striking, firearms researchers say, because there are already regulations that bar the use of C.D.C. money for lobbying for or against legislation. No other field of inquiry is singled out in this way.

In the end, researchers said, even though it is murky what exactly is allowed under this provision and what is not, the upshot is clear inside the centers: the agency should tread in this area only at its own peril.

“They had a near-death experience,” said Dr. Arthur Kellermann, whose study on the risks versus the benefits of having guns in the home became a focal point of attack by the N.R.A.

In the years since, the C.D.C. has been exceedingly wary of financing research focused on firearms. In its annual requests for proposals, for example, firearms research has been notably absent. Gail Hayes, spokeswoman for the centers, confirmed that since 1996, while the agency has issued requests for proposals that include the study of violence, which may include gun violence, it had not sent out any specifically on firearms.

“For policy to be effective, it needs to be based on evidence,” said Dr. Garen Wintemute, director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California, Davis, who had his C.D.C. financing cut in 1996. “The National Rifle Association and its allies in Congress have largely succeeded in choking off the development of evidence upon which that policy could be based.”

Private foundations initially stepped into the breach, but their attention tends to wax and wane, researchers said. They are also much more interested in work that leads to immediate results and less willing to finance basic epidemiological research that scientists say is necessary to establishing a foundation of knowledge about the connection between guns and violence, or the lack thereof.

The National Institute of Justice, part of the Justice Department, also used to finance firearms research, researchers said, but that money has also petered out in recent years. (Institute officials said they hoped to reinvigorate financing in this area.)

Stephen Teret, founding director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, estimated that the amount of money available for firearms research was a quarter of what it used to be. With so much uncertainty about financing, Mr. Teret said, the circle of academics who study the phenomenon has fallen off significantly.

After the centers’ clash with the N.R.A., Mr. Teret said he was asked by C.D.C. officials to “curtail some things I was saying about guns and gun policy.”

Mr. Teret objected, saying his public comments about gun policy did not come while he was on the “C.D.C. meter.” After he threatened to file a lawsuit against the agency, Mr. Teret said, the officials backed down and gave him “a little bit more leeway.”

C.D.C. financing for research on gun violence has not stopped completely, but it is now mostly limited to work in which firearms are only a component.

The centers also ask researchers it finances to give it a heads-up anytime they are publishing studies that have anything to do with firearms. The agency, in turn, relays this information to the N.R.A. as a courtesy, said Thomas Skinner, a spokesman for the centers.

Invariably, researchers said, whenever their work touches upon firearms, the C.D.C. becomes squeamish. In the end, they said, it is often simply easier to avoid the topic if they want to continue to be in the agency’s good graces.

Dr. Stephen Hargarten, professor and chairman of emergency medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin, used to direct a research center, financed by the C.D.C., that focused on gun violence, but he said he had now shifted his attention to other issues.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by donkhater View Post
Do I know a solution to this epidemic of gun violence? No. But:

1. The US has had guns legal for centuries. Only in the last few years have these mass killings taken the spotlight. So what has changed is not guns, but something else in society. What could that be? Consider:

2. Our amazing acceptance of violence in our 'entertainment'. There used to be westerns and shoot 'em ups before, but the graphic and glorifying nature of murder is appalling. I went to the latest Dark Knight Movie and 3 of the 4 previews were The Bourne Legacy, Looper, and Total Recall, three movies that have, as the 'good' guy protagonist, an assassin or mercenary. Add to that the popularity of violent video games and I really can't see why anyone would surprised.

3. A decade of 'war on terror' has given this country many chances to honor our soldiers and heros of war, but the public is so detached from what really happens, do they (especially young kids) know what war really is? What it means to kill someone?

4. Abortion. WHAT? you say? Yes. Anytime as a society we make excuses as to why we should be able to end a human life, it lessens the value of life itself. If we start to rationalize why its ok to kill if as long as there is a just cause, then that line gets blurred. If responsible adults aren't around to guide young people as to where that line is, then you can have things like this happens. It's all connected IMO.

The mental disease aspect of the cause has legs, but in some ways I also feel it is a cop-out and another layer of a blindfold to put over our eyes when it comes to how we value life in this country.
This is a good post.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:42 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We should be looking for ways to cut spending not ways to increase it.
We should be thinking of ways of making our society better and safer.

That's my priority.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:43 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Private entities like the NRA can fund gun research. Our government doesn't need to spend money for that. We can just let the competing private interest groups present their findings and critique each other.
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Originally Posted by Brock View Post
Not sure if serious, but
He's pretty much not serious, but my reaction was the same.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
They cost money. Why do we need this information?
So we can better identify the causes of these atrocities and consequences of our efforts to curb them.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:46 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by luv View Post
I have a question, and I don't want to create a thread in order to ask it. I don't believe that guns should be banned. I do, however, believe that not just anyone should be allowed to purchase a gun, and that some types of guns are not necessary outside the realm of personal protection or hunting. If I don't agree that owning a gun is a human right, but I also don't want them banned, then where do I fall in the grand scheme of things? I'm pro guns, but also pro gun control.
Well my answer, surely to be contested by many others in this thread, is that you're right in the mainstream of America.

2nd amendment has been defined over and over again in the courts: we get guns. You want a gun, you can get one.

But like free speech, the right to bear arms is not absolute. Reasonable regulations can thrive and have thrived before to make sure this freedom is wielded for society's benefit.

Despite the protests of the NRA and some of the anti gun control folks in this thread, this remains true: being pro gun control is, for most people, not an anti-gun position.
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:56 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
We should be thinking of ways of making our society better and safer.

That's my priority.
Oh, believe me, I never thought you or any democrat really cared about living within our means and preserving a financially stable country for our children. Even when George W. Bush and his compassionate conservatism was spending too much money, democrats always wanted to spend more (except on national defense).
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Old 12-17-2012, 01:58 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
He's pretty much not serious, but my reaction was the same.
Oh, no, I am serious. What's wrong with having private entities fund this type of research?
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Well my answer, surely to be contested by many others in this thread, is that you're right in the mainstream of America.

2nd amendment has been defined over and over again in the courts: we get guns. You want a gun, you can get one.

But like free speech, the right to bear arms is not absolute. Reasonable regulations can thrive and have thrived before to make sure this freedom is wielded for society's benefit.

Despite the protests of the NRA and some of the anti gun control folks in this thread, this remains true: being pro gun control is, for most people, not an anti-gun position.
I personally own many guns. I agree that it is NOT a right, rather a privilege, just like driving a car. Not just anyone can get a gun. Felons or those with a mental disorder come to mind. Also, you can't own one under the age of 21. That seems pretty reasonable to me. What more controls do we need to put in? Serious question.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:12 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
I personally own many guns. I agree that it is NOT a right, rather a privilege, just like driving a car. Not just anyone can get a gun. Felons or those with a mental disorder come to mind. Also, you can't own one under the age of 21. That seems pretty reasonable to me. What more controls do we need to put in? Serious question.
I would think it'd be more of an enforcement thing. Are laws currently on a federal or state level? I've heard that some states require background checks, while others do not.

Of that list though, I would add that a gun use and safety course certificate be required in order to purchase as well.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:19 PM   #55
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Anyway, I didn't want to derail the thread topic. I just thought I'd pose my question in a thread on a similar subject. Thanks for your thoughts, Direckshun.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:25 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Oh, no, I am serious. What's wrong with having private entities fund this type of research?
Not a fan of gun control at all, but what you're suggesting is kind of like having the Tobacco Institute investigate lung cancer.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by luv View Post
I would think it'd be more of an enforcement thing. Are laws currently on a federal or state level? I've heard that some states require background checks, while others do not.

Of that list though, I would add that a gun use and safety course certificate be required in order to purchase as well.
backgrounds checks are now federally required, except in so-called "gun shows". The problem with checks at gun shows is we're now talking about requiring a background check for private sales between one non-merchant, regular person and another. If we require a check there, we'd also need to start requiring checks before someone could give a gun to a brother or other relative as a christmas present. Some people have a problem with that, some don't.

Anyway, I don't think many people oppose safety courses, provided the state doesn't create a de facto ban by making safety courses once a year in some obscure unadvertised location that costs $1,000 with limited seating or something like that.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:29 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by InChiefsHell View Post
I personally own many guns. I agree that it is NOT a right, rather a privilege, just like driving a car. Not just anyone can get a gun. Felons or those with a mental disorder come to mind. Also, you can't own one under the age of 21. That seems pretty reasonable to me. What more controls do we need to put in? Serious question.
while I agree with your suggested mechanisms for safety, I remind you the right to own any and all weapons is declared in the bill of RIGHTS

As another measure of "control" I would add all americans must take a test on the US Constitution so there is no confusion of the fact we are guaranteed our individual right to own nukes, if we so desire

See, the thing is, it's about freedom and those liberties afforded. Let me be even more clear -- it is about the right to defend my individual as I see fit against any opponent. Our forefathers did not hand in a list of approved weapons, they spelled it out "arms". If I put "nuclear" in front of "arms", it works for me in my own defense.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Brock View Post
Not a fan of gun control at all, but what you're suggesting is kind of like having the Tobacco Institute investigate lung cancer.
There's plenty of money out there in the hands of people who support gun control to counter NRA biases. The Brady Center or someone like them can look for flaws in the NRA's research or do their own original work.
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Old 12-17-2012, 02:32 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by luv View Post
I have a question, and I don't want to create a thread in order to ask it. I don't believe that guns should be banned. I do, however, believe that not just anyone should be allowed to purchase a gun, and that some types of guns are not necessary outside the realm of personal protection or hunting. If I don't agree that owning a gun is a human right, but I also don't want them banned, then where do I fall in the grand scheme of things? I'm pro guns, but also pro gun control.
Sounds like you are pretty smart! There are a lot of NRA members who feel as you do.
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This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
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