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View Poll Results: Should we allow gays the same rights as hetrosexuals?
Yes 68 72.34%
No 8 8.51%
Leave it to the states. Not a federal issue. 17 18.09%
GAZ says FU BRC, you are gay 1 1.06%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2012, 10:03 AM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is offline
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SCOTUS to take on allowing Gays to marry. What say you?

There are two cases(DOMA and Proposition 8) to be heard by the SCOTUS this session.

At the base of the question is do gay Americans have the same rights as heterosexual Americans? And if so, do they need their constitutional rights protected at the federal level.

I've never had an openly gay friend, co-worker or family member. I did coach a little league baseball team. On that team I had a player with two Mom's. The players and the parents accepted the kid of the two Mom's as any other player. The other parents let their kids go over to the two Mom's house for sleepovers etc. It wasn't a factor to consider in the slightest.

I don't have any personal experience to know what rights is actually being denied. However, I believe that for whatever reason they were born that way. It's not a choice. You can't pray it out of them. You can't give them therapy and turn them into heterosexuals. They are what they are naturally and we should just accept them.

IMHO, the government/city/state/society have no right to tell it's citizens what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom. some of our citizens who they can and who they can't love. Who they can and can't marry. History will not be kind to the discrimination of gays, with cause. It's time to end this era of gay discrimination.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:13 AM   #376
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Kagan: So if this law were based on Congress' "moral disapproval" of gays it should be struck down right? DOMA Lawyer: of course, Kagan: Well Congress said on the record here that the bill is based on a "moral disapproval of homosexualty"

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/l...-politics.html
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:14 AM   #377
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Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor makes the best argument for the defeat of DOMA in a single question to a stumped attorney

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...cs&ir=Politics
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:27 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Ah, you're projecting now. Those are your words—not mine. Stop putting words in my mouth. He's a left-wing Marxist is what I said. There are many authors who were in that camp. Even Beatrice Potter.

So what if he won a Pulitzer. Doris Kearns Goodwin did too and was caught plagiarizing. All that tells me is that committee is part of the Lincoln Cult.

You'd probably call Lerone Bennett, Jr. who wrote Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln’s White Dream which was scathing on Lincoln using heaps of true facts, a "hack." Even though he was the executive editor of Ebony magazine for several decades, simply because it doesn't conform to your views. Just as it was ignored by the Lincoln Cult. At least, my reference to Marx shows a love for centralized govt power and force. That's related to Lincoln's abuses.



Yes I do. But you barely read what I post, so I barely read yours. You're not worth it. I know all those arguments already and it's a waste of time. So I just skim for certain things and point those out. In this case you called iLorenzo a "hack. So why not point out, as I did in another thread, that your source is a Marxist? You claimed to be "the" authority by doing grad studies on this, as if no one else is capable of reading and studying a historical issue on their own. I'm a former Civil War buff complete with going to enactments.

Okay if you do it—it's okay. If I do it, it's not okay. Yup! That's the way of a elitist and Prog.



Now, see there you go again! You completely misread what I posted. Article One refers to the powers of Congress not the Executive Branch. Here's what I actually posted:You're either stupid or just intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, leaving the Union, which was considered voluntary by our Framers, is a peaceful act—not an insurrection. They did not rise up violently. They even offered to pay for all military installations of the Federal govt remaining in their territory. I cited from that time as evidence. You've learned nothing from what I have said earlier on this. The south left peacefully and did not violently attack the US govt. I already told you about Lincoln praising who he sent to Sumter, which did not need to be resupplied, for provoking the south into shooting first. Lincoln was in their territorial waters after they seceded. It's not different than the sinking of the Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and Iraq in order to create a casus belli for war. Lincoln started it but the history books false report by omitting other details.
Noun
A violent uprising against an authority or government: "opposition to the new regime led to armed insurrection".
You could say the same thing about the Revolutionary War patriots who seceded from Great Britain. Come to think of it, now that I recall our earlier discussion, the author on Lincoln you rely on was against the the Soviet Union breaking up. Okay, I get it— you support, defend and excuse tyrants. It's obvious.



Another strawman. I said he shot draft protestors. You should know the wealthy were able to buy their way out of the draft. Lincoln was not popular in his time, nor was his war.

Just like your side alters the words in the Constitution, you continuously alter what I post by changing it to something else to appear like you are taking my claim down—when you are NOT.


Look who is ranting now! No wonder you protest about that so much. But oh no, you're not going to avoid where he governed as a tyrant in numerous ways, as if there was one exception that I never cited. You're all over the map now. Lincoln is the most whitewashed of all presidents. I would say FDR is the second most whitewashed.

When you can read what I post, I might spend the time to get into this more on your other points. Until then you are a complete waste of time.


I read what you write. Your problem is, your a horrible writer, you can only use logical fallacies and out right lies for arguments. You bring up lies, I counter them, you ignore and go on to bring some other fringe topic. You author's are hacks because they have the same fundamental wrongness of history, on The Corwin Amendment, on Fugitive slave act. One sentence you call Lincoln and Tyrant for supposedly going against the Constitution, the next you are attacking for not going against the Constitutions. That is why you are a hack.

Secession is not the same as revolution. You are an idiot. The very definition is different. Yes, secede because of an Election is exactly the same.
You are not a Civil War buff. You are a Hack who follows other Hack Historians. You even ignore what the actual Confederate leaders say for your fringe revisionist history. You don't read primary sources. You don't read peer review sources. You listen to hacks with an agenda.

I am not taking the time to respond anymore on this subject with you. Hacks like you who want to view history through modern political biases aren't worth the time.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:14 AM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Kagan: So if this law were based on Congress' "moral disapproval" of gays it should be struck down right? DOMA Lawyer: of course, Kagan: Well Congress said on the record here that the bill is based on a "moral disapproval of homosexualty"

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/l...-politics.html
Was that the only motivation?
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:47 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
your a horrible writer
Oy Veh. Just saying.
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Old 03-29-2013, 03:31 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not arguing that the supreme court should have permitted AA or that they were right to do so. I was responding to the accusation that the Dems are hypocrites for yelling about equality now, while still favoring AA.

That is a silly argument, because they are supporting AA precisely because they think it is necessary to achieve equality, so there's no intellectual contradiction in their stance. They may be incorrect (if not then, certainly now) and we may disagree with them on whether AA is needed, but their motives at least were clear, though misguided.
Perfect encapsulation of why I trend libertarian. Often their motives are laudible, but their methods are atrocious. That all too often their motives get compromised as well [structuring government to enrich interest groups, for example] is just icing on the cake.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:36 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post

I read what you write. Your problem is, your a horrible writer, you can only use logical fallacies and out right lies for arguments. You bring up lies, I counter them, you ignore [ as you did] and go on to bring some other fringe topic. [No I bring up the right topic because I disagree with the one you're using] You author's are hacks because they have the same fundamental wrongness of history, [opinion] on The Corwin Amendment, on Fugitive slave act. One sentence you call Lincoln and Tyrant for supposedly going against the Constitution, the next you are attacking for not going against the Constitutions.
[Wha what?]That is why you are a hack.
Loads of logical fallacies and projection. A sign you're losing the argument.

Let's look at the horrible writer projection going on here:
"your a horrible" It's supposed to be "you're"
"You author's" when it's supposed to be "Your authors"


Quote:
Secession is not the same as revolution.
You are an idiot. [Another logical fallacy]
You're the one who claimed the south committed the offense of an insurrection—not I.

Quote:
The very definition is different.
That's what I said. You didn't seem to notice.

Quote:
Yes, secede because of an Election is exactly the same.
So.

I provided evidence in a previous thread with you, showing language by some Framers dropping the use of force should a state leave the union. The union was voluntary. This point was even discussed in the papers of that time.

Secession is what this country was founded on. Read the Declaration of Independence. It's as American as apple pie. This is relevant to this issue, even if you never brought it up. I can add what I think applies too.


Quote:
You are not a Civil War buff. You are a Hack who follows other Hack Historians. You even ignore what the actual Confederate leaders say for your fringe revisionist history. You don't read primary sources.
I gave you Lincoln quotes and a quote by a Framer earlier. Yet, you ignore those. Project much?

Quote:
You don't read peer review sources.
at this appeal to authority.

Quote:
You listen to hacks with an agenda.
Project much? Yet you read an author who was opposed to the Soviet Union breaking up.


Quote:
I am not taking the time to respond anymore on this subject with you. Hacks like you who want to view history through modern political biases aren't worth the time.
Thank you for conceding my points. Since you had nothin' but logical fallacies ( you this, you that, ad nauseum and accusing me of the things you did) then I obviously got the better you. You lost this argument.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:26 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post

Thank you for conceding my points. Since you had nothin' but logical fallacies ( you this, you that, ad nauseum and accusing me of the things you did) then I obviously got the better you. You lost this argument.
When you say stupid stuff like this "You could say the same thing about the Revolutionary War patriots who seceded from Great Britain", you don't deserve an educated response. You don't even understand that trying to use revolution and secede interchangeable destroys your own argument. You are pants on the head dumb and nothing I say will stop you from lying about history.

Secede differs significantly from the right of revolution because secessionist denied the right of the central government to coerce seceding members to remain in the union.

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Old 03-30-2013, 10:40 AM   #384
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I thought you weren't going to respond anymore?

Fact: we seceded from Great Britain.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:04 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I thought you weren't going to respond anymore?

Fact: we seceded from Great Britain.
I think you are confused.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:13 AM   #386
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I think you are confused.
I think you're projecting.

Here are the facts:

Quote:
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
The Tories who did not want to secede moved to Canada and remained with the Crown. This is also fact.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:14 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by BigRedChief View Post
I think you are confused.
You've heard of the Declaration of Independence, no?
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:15 AM   #388
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Oh and BRC, Jefferson didn't have to use the word "secession" per se, what he wrote is exactly that, just in his own words.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:02 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
You've heard of the Declaration of Independence, no?
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:05 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Oh and BRC, Jefferson didn't have to use the word "secession" per se, what he wrote is exactly that, just in his own words.
well we all have our faults. 3/5ths of a person sounded good at the time.
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