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View Poll Results: Should we allow gays the same rights as hetrosexuals?
Yes 68 72.34%
No 8 8.51%
Leave it to the states. Not a federal issue. 17 18.09%
GAZ says FU BRC, you are gay 1 1.06%
Voters: 94. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-09-2012, 09:03 AM  
BigRedChief BigRedChief is online now
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SCOTUS to take on allowing Gays to marry. What say you?

There are two cases(DOMA and Proposition 8) to be heard by the SCOTUS this session.

At the base of the question is do gay Americans have the same rights as heterosexual Americans? And if so, do they need their constitutional rights protected at the federal level.

I've never had an openly gay friend, co-worker or family member. I did coach a little league baseball team. On that team I had a player with two Mom's. The players and the parents accepted the kid of the two Mom's as any other player. The other parents let their kids go over to the two Mom's house for sleepovers etc. It wasn't a factor to consider in the slightest.

I don't have any personal experience to know what rights is actually being denied. However, I believe that for whatever reason they were born that way. It's not a choice. You can't pray it out of them. You can't give them therapy and turn them into heterosexuals. They are what they are naturally and we should just accept them.

IMHO, the government/city/state/society have no right to tell it's citizens what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedroom. some of our citizens who they can and who they can't love. Who they can and can't marry. History will not be kind to the discrimination of gays, with cause. It's time to end this era of gay discrimination.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:30 AM   #361
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OK, well we're not getting anywhere so I'll let it drop. I think the equal protection clause should be applied everywhere, I just don't think it should work the way you think it should work.
That's fine if you want to drop it. I do enjoy speaking with you about this stuff though even though we have differing opinions.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:36 AM   #362
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If Democrats really believe in "equal protection", why do they support affirmative action and quotas?
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:11 AM   #363
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NOPE
Remember, Lincoln told different audiences different things as a politician.
You already, cited you own hack Marxist historian's book before. The fact that you think doing graduate studies makes you the only authority is laughable. If anything it's more likely to be PC and Marxist. The universities are a problem due to the dominance of left-leaning and/or Marxist professors and programs. Marx was an admirer of Lincoln like yourself and Foner. Foner praised Lincoln for denouncing nullification of the Fugitive Slave Act, which propped up slavery, by northern states because he was claimed to support "the rule of law."

FACT: Lincoln governed as a tyrant. No wonder Foner and your ilk praise him.

Anyhow, time to take this to its own thread.
I love that you think the winner of the Pulitzer prize is a hack. Great counterpoints by the way, nothing like a rant on Marxism. Do you even know how to stay on topic? Is that all you got when back into a corner, rants about sources?



"FACT: Lincoln governed as a tyrant."
No, not even close to a fact. From a Constitutional standpoint, the power of the federal government to suspend habeas corpus “in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety” is clearly spelled out in Article 1, Section IX. And an insurrection of eleven states would certainly qualify as such.

“Must I shoot a simple-minded soldier boy who deserts,” Lincoln asked, “while I may not touch a hair on the head of the wily agitator who induces him to desert?”

Did the country not hold elections in 62(and republicans lost some seats) and 64? Did he govern Missouri the same way as Maryland? Did he govern Kentucky the same way as Maryland? Have any more tyrant examples you could provide? No, of course not. Except for Lincoln overuse of Military courts.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:40 AM   #364
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Exactly! Heh, what do you think Pat? Can we find some common ground here? Let's do away with child tax credits, and every other perk married people get. It's a damned entitlement! It needs to go!
Pat HATES the EITC.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:12 AM   #365
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If Democrats really believe in "equal protection", why do they support affirmative action and quotas?
That is not a good argument at all.

I don't support AA, but theoretically the purpose is precisely to promote and strive for equality, under the presumption that due to history and bigotry, society is unfairly keeping some people down. They didn't just wake up one day and go "we hate white people, lets make these other groups better".
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:17 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
That is not a good argument at all.

I don't support AA, but theoretically the purpose is precisely to promote and strive for equality, under the presumption that due to history and bigotry, society is unfairly keeping some people down. They didn't just wake up one day and go "we hate white people, lets make these other groups better".
I'm not sure how you reconcile that with the Constitution's equal protection clause. The Constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to discriminate in an effort to produce equality.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:20 AM   #367
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I'm not sure how you reconcile that with the Constitution's equal protection clause. The Constitution doesn't give the federal government the power to discriminate in an effort to produce equality.
I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not arguing that the supreme court should have permitted AA or that they were right to do so. I was responding to the accusation that the Dems are hypocrites for yelling about equality now, while still favoring AA.

That is a silly argument, because they are supporting AA precisely because they think it is necessary to achieve equality, so there's no intellectual contradiction in their stance. They may be incorrect (if not then, certainly now) and we may disagree with them on whether AA is needed, but their motives at least were clear, though misguided.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:23 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not arguing that the supreme court should have permitted AA or that they were right to do so. I was responding to the accusation that the Dems are hypocrites for yelling about equality now, while still favoring AA.

That is a silly argument, because they are supporting AA precisely because they think it is necessary to achieve equality, so there's no intellectual contradiction in their stance. They may be incorrect (if not then, certainly now) and we may disagree with them on whether AA is needed, but their motives at least were clear, though misguided.
OK
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #369
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I love that you think the winner of the Pulitzer prize is a hack.
Ah, you're projecting now. Those are your words—not mine. Stop putting words in my mouth. He's a left-wing Marxist is what I said. There are many authors who were in that camp. Even Beatrice Potter.

So what if he won a Pulitzer. Doris Kearns Goodwin did too and was caught plagiarizing. All that tells me is that committee is part of the Lincoln Cult.

You'd probably call Lerone Bennett, Jr. who wrote Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln’s White Dream which was scathing on Lincoln using heaps of true facts, a "hack." Even though he was the executive editor of Ebony magazine for several decades, simply because it doesn't conform to your views. Just as it was ignored by the Lincoln Cult. At least, my reference to Marx shows a love for centralized govt power and force. That's related to Lincoln's abuses.

Quote:
Great counterpoints by the way, nothing like a rant on Marxism. Do you even know how to stay on topic? Is that all you got when back into a corner, rants about sources?
Yes I do. But you barely read what I post, so I barely read yours. You're not worth it. I know all those arguments already and it's a waste of time. So I just skim for certain things and point those out. In this case you called iLorenzo a "hack. So why not point out, as I did in another thread, that your source is a Marxist? You claimed to be "the" authority by doing grad studies on this, as if no one else is capable of reading and studying a historical issue on their own. I'm a former Civil War buff complete with going to enactments.

Okay if you do it—it's okay. If I do it, it's not okay. Yup! That's the way of a elitist and Prog.

Quote:
"FACT: Lincoln governed as a tyrant."
No, not even close to a fact. From a Constitutional standpoint, the power of the federal government to suspend habeas corpus “in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety” is clearly spelled out in Article 1, Section IX. And an insurrection of eleven states would certainly qualify as such.
Now, see there you go again! You completely misread what I posted. Article One refers to the powers of Congress not the Executive Branch. Here's what I actually posted:
Quote:
wouldn't have tried to jail Justice Taney for stating the legislature, not the executive, can suspend Habeas Corpus;
You're either stupid or just intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, leaving the Union, which was considered voluntary by our Framers, is a peaceful act—not an insurrection. They did not rise up violently. They even offered to pay for all military installations of the Federal govt remaining in their territory. I cited from that time as evidence. You've learned nothing from what I have said earlier on this. The south left peacefully and did not violently attack the US govt. I already told you about Lincoln praising who he sent to Sumter, which did not need to be resupplied, for provoking the south into shooting first. Lincoln was in their territorial waters after they seceded. It's not different than the sinking of the Maine, the Gulf of Tonkin incident and Iraq in order to create a casus belli for war. Lincoln started it but the history books false report by omitting other details.
Noun
A violent uprising against an authority or government: "opposition to the new regime led to armed insurrection".
You could say the same thing about the Revolutionary War patriots who seceded from Great Britain. Come to think of it, now that I recall our earlier discussion, the author on Lincoln you rely on was against the the Soviet Union breaking up. Okay, I get it— you support, defend and excuse tyrants. It's obvious.

Quote:
“Must I shoot a simple-minded soldier boy who deserts,” Lincoln asked, “while I may not touch a hair on the head of the wily agitator who induces him to desert?”
Another strawman. I said he shot draft protestors. You should know the wealthy were able to buy their way out of the draft. Lincoln was not popular in his time, nor was his war.

Just like your side alters the words in the Constitution, you continuously alter what I post by changing it to something else to appear like you are taking my claim down—when you are NOT.

Quote:
Did the country not hold elections in 62(and republicans lost some seats) and 64? Did he govern Missouri the same way as Maryland? Did he govern Kentucky the same way as Maryland? Have any more tyrant examples you could provide? No, of course not. Except for Lincoln overuse of Military courts.
Look who is ranting now! No wonder you protest about that so much. But oh no, you're not going to avoid where he governed as a tyrant in numerous ways, as if there was one exception that I never cited. You're all over the map now. Lincoln is the most whitewashed of all presidents. I would say FDR is the second most whitewashed.

When you can read what I post, I might spend the time to get into this more on your other points. Until then you are a complete waste of time.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:43 AM   #370
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To Loneiguana, books that worship centralized state power are valid only. Books that take that view apart are written by "hacks."
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:46 AM   #371
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I actually find this entire subject somewhat sad. Despite homosexuals' attempts to normalize and equalize their deviancy, nature dictates that it will never be so.
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:55 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by alnorth View Post
I think you misunderstood me.

I'm not arguing that the supreme court should have permitted AA or that they were right to do so. I was responding to the accusation that the Dems are hypocrites for yelling about equality now, while still favoring AA.

That is a silly argument, because they are supporting AA precisely because they think it is necessary to achieve equality, so there's no intellectual contradiction in their stance. They may be incorrect (if not then, certainly now) and we may disagree with them on whether AA is needed, but their motives at least were clear, though misguided.


I think you're rebuttal is garbage, and somewhat humorous at the same time. It's absolute, undeniable hypocrisy. The "government" has absolutely zero authority to treat different classes of citizens differently . PERIOD.



In fact it's expressly prohibited by the Constitution. Whining that it's justified to right those oh-so-wrongs (that only 1 side, the beneficiary, actually agrees exist)......garbage.
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:59 PM   #373
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:15 PM   #374
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:21 PM   #375
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