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Old 11-25-2012, 12:32 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Obama administration pushed for "drone rulebook" during the election.

Imagine that.

President Obama and his administration were perfectly fine with the drone program's complete extralegal operation in the shadows with no accountability and no legal red tape guiding their operations to make sure the power to kill people far, far away weren't absolute.

Then, the election rolls along. There's a chance that Mitt Romney actually wins the thing, and at this point the Obama administration realizes: maybe it's not a good thing to have limitless, extralegal power to kill with no accountability? I mean, the Republicans aren't us, we can't trust them as much.

Epic ****ing facepalm. The realization that accountability needs to be in place to protect us from the other party, rather than to protect the most basic foundations of American jurisprudence, due process, and public service. Just shockingly stupid.

Add into all of this: the Obama administration is seeking a rulebook. Whatever that is. Legal framework? Legal accountability? Better access for oversight? It may not be until another Republican comes close to winning a Presidential election before we find out. Christ.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/25/wo...pagewanted=all

Election Spurred a Move to Codify U.S. Drone Policy
By SCOTT SHANE
Published: November 24, 2012

WASHINGTON — Facing the possibility that President Obama might not win a second term, his administration accelerated work in the weeks before the election to develop explicit rules for the targeted killing of terrorists by unmanned drones, so that a new president would inherit clear standards and procedures, according to two administration officials.

The matter may have lost some urgency after Nov. 6. But with more than 300 drone strikes and some 2,500 people killed by the Central Intelligence Agency and the military since Mr. Obama first took office, the administration is still pushing to make the rules formal and resolve internal uncertainty and disagreement about exactly when lethal action is justified.

Mr. Obama and his advisers are still debating whether remote-control killing should be a measure of last resort against imminent threats to the United States, or a more flexible tool, available to help allied governments attack their enemies or to prevent militants from controlling territory.

Though publicly the administration presents a united front on the use of drones, behind the scenes there is longstanding tension. The Defense Department and the C.I.A. continue to press for greater latitude to carry out strikes; Justice Department and State Department officials, and the president’s counterterrorism adviser, John O. Brennan, have argued for restraint, officials involved in the discussions say.

More broadly, the administration’s legal reasoning has not persuaded many other countries that the strikes are acceptable under international law. For years before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the United States routinely condemned targeted killings of suspected terrorists by Israel, and most countries still object to such measures.

But since the first targeted killing by the United States in 2002, two administrations have taken the position that the United States is at war with Al Qaeda and its allies and can legally defend itself by striking its enemies wherever they are found.

Partly because United Nations officials know that the United States is setting a legal and ethical precedent for other countries developing armed drones, the U.N. plans to open a unit in Geneva early next year to investigate American drone strikes.

The attempt to write a formal rule book for targeted killing began last summer after news reports on the drone program, started under President George W. Bush and expanded by Mr. Obama, revealed some details of the president’s role in the shifting procedures for compiling “kill lists” and approving strikes. Though national security officials insist that the process is meticulous and lawful, the president and top aides believe it should be institutionalized, a course of action that seemed particularly urgent when it appeared that Mitt Romney might win the presidency.

“There was concern that the levers might no longer be in our hands,” said one official, speaking on condition of anonymity. With a continuing debate about the proper limits of drone strikes, Mr. Obama did not want to leave an “amorphous” program to his successor, the official said. The effort, which would have been rushed to completion by January had Mr. Romney won, will now be finished at a more leisurely pace, the official said.

Mr. Obama himself, in little-noticed remarks, has acknowledged that the legal governance of drone strikes is still a work in progress.

“One of the things we’ve got to do is put a legal architecture in place, and we need Congressional help in order to do that, to make sure that not only am I reined in but any president’s reined in terms of some of the decisions that we’re making,” Mr. Obama told Jon Stewart in an appearance on “The Daily Show” on Oct. 18.

In an interview with Mark Bowden for a new book on the killing of Osama bin Laden, “The Finish,” Mr. Obama said that “creating a legal structure, processes, with oversight checks on how we use unmanned weapons, is going to be a challenge for me and my successors for some time to come.”

The president expressed wariness of the powerful temptation drones pose to policy makers. “There’s a remoteness to it that makes it tempting to think that somehow we can, without any mess on our hands, solve vexing security problems,” he said.

Despite public remarks by Mr. Obama and his aides on the legal basis for targeted killing, the program remains officially classified. In court, fighting lawsuits filed by the American Civil Liberties Union and The New York Times seeking secret legal opinions on targeted killings, the government has refused even to acknowledge the existence of the drone program in Pakistan.

But by many accounts, there has been a significant shift in the nature of the targets. In the early years, most strikes were aimed at ranking leaders of Al Qaeda thought to be plotting to attack the United States. That is the purpose Mr. Obama has emphasized, saying in a CNN interview in September that drones were used to prevent “an operational plot against the United States” and counter “terrorist networks that target the United States.”

But for at least two years in Pakistan, partly because of the C.I.A.’s success in decimating Al Qaeda’s top ranks, most strikes have been directed at militants whose main battle is with the Pakistani authorities or who fight with the Taliban against American troops in Afghanistan.

In Yemen, some strikes apparently launched by the United States killed militants who were preparing to attack Yemeni military forces. Some of those killed were wearing suicide vests, according to Yemeni news reports.

“Unless they were about to get on a flight to New York to conduct an attack, they were not an imminent threat to the United States,” said Micah Zenko, a fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations who is a critic of the strikes. “We don’t say that we’re the counterinsurgency air force of Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia, but we are.”

Then there is the matter of strikes against people whose identities are unknown. In an online video chat in January, Mr. Obama spoke of the strikes in Pakistan as “a targeted, focused effort at people who are on a list of active terrorists.” But for several years, first in Pakistan and later in Yemen, in addition to “personality strikes” against named terrorists, the C.I.A. and the military have carried out “signature strikes” against groups of suspected, unknown militants.

Originally that term was used to suggest the specific “signature” of a known high-level terrorist, such as his vehicle parked at a meeting place. But the word evolved to mean the “signature” of militants in general — for instance, young men toting arms in an area controlled by extremist groups. Such strikes have prompted the greatest conflict inside the Obama administration, with some officials questioning whether killing unidentified fighters is legally justified or worth the local backlash.

Many people inside and outside the government have argued for far greater candor about all of the strikes, saying excessive secrecy has prevented public debate in Congress or a full explanation of their rationale. Experts say the strikes are deeply unpopular both in Pakistan and Yemen, in part because of allegations of large numbers of civilian casualties, which American officials say are exaggerated.

Gregory D. Johnsen, author of “The Last Refuge: Yemen, Al Qaeda and America’s War in Arabia,” argues that the strike strategy is backfiring in Yemen. “In Yemen, Al Qaeda is actually expanding,” Mr. Johnsen said in a recent talk at the Brookings Institution, in part because of the backlash against the strikes.

Shuja Nawaz, a Pakistan-born analyst now at the Atlantic Council in Washington, said the United States should start making public a detailed account of the results of each strike, including any collateral deaths, in part to counter propaganda from jihadist groups. “This is a grand opportunity for the Obama administration to take the drones out of the shadows and to be open about their objectives,” he said.

But the administration appears to be a long way from embracing such openness. The draft rule book for drone strikes that has been passed among agencies over the last several months is so highly classified, officials said, that it is hand-carried from office to office rather than sent by e-mail.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:17 PM   #2
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Rep for starting a thread criticizing the Obama administration. Not because it's the Obama administration, but because you recognize that the party you support doesn't always do the right thing.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:24 PM   #3
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By contrast, the Bush administration developed a rule book and oversight protections for it's non-lethal enhanced interrogation program from the beginning. The idea that the reason for a rule book is to protect us from Republicans is demented.
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Old 11-25-2012, 01:33 PM   #4
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
By contrast, the Bush administration developed a rule book and oversight protections for it's non-lethal enhanced interrogation program from the beginning. The idea that the reason for a rule book is to protect us from Republicans is demented.
As tempting as it would be to be sucked into yet another thread where I expose your insanity and disconnectedness to reality regarding torture, I'll go ahead and agree with your last sentence there.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:41 PM   #5
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A drone is a weapon of war. The rules of war should apply to drones.....

If we are at war with a group or a country, then the rules of war should apply...

What needs to be clarified are the rules of war when they apply to American citizens, who leave the united states and join an enemy with whom we are at war. Personally, I feel like if you do this during a time of war, you can (and should) become a valid target / enemy combatant...And clarify that the nemy is the one BREAKING the geneva conventions for ****'s sake.

The thing that sucks is that terror groups with whom we are at war are breaking the Geneva convention, hiding amongst civilians, and recruiting American citizens to join them.

If we stop targeting them because 1) they're hiding among civs, 2) they are US citizens or have US citizens among them, then a successful game plan for THEM becomes very clear, and easy. Alll they have to do is hide amongst civillians or get a few American protestors or citizens to hide amongst them. So we absolutely cannot allow those things to stop us from hitting these targets (with or without drones).

I firmly believe that it isn't drones that are the problem, it is hitting targets who are BREAKING the Geneva convention. We simply have to have a conversation about this as a country...

Do we allow terror groups to successfully use human shields / brainwashed or traitorous American citizens as shields?

Drones are among the most DISCRIMINATING weapon systems we have & to describe them as indiscriminate is completely dishonest.

Personally I would rather have drones do the work than our citizens, but the REAL question is "Do we need to do this work?"

If not, stop it all together. If so, use every single thing in our arsenal (including drones) and call the enemy out for violating the Geneva convention.

Otherwise why ****ing bother?
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:46 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
As tempting as it would be to be sucked into yet another thread where I expose your insanity and disconnectedness to reality regarding torture, I'll go ahead and agree with your last sentence there.
Rulebook plus oversight for a non-lethal interrogation program - GWBush

No rules or oversight for assassination program that occassionally targets US citizens - BHObama

Whatever your opinion is of the interrogation program, that's a pretty stark contrast.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:48 PM   #7
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Never could understand the liberals crying over torture, but accepting death from the sky as a suitable alternative. Much more humane to kill them instead of torture them?
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:51 PM   #8
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Never could understand the liberals crying over torture, but accepting death from the sky as a suitable alternative. Much more humane to kill them instead of torture them?
This is a really flawed argument, since killing combatants in the field is legal (Geneva convention) and killing or torturing of captured/prisoners is not.

People who make this argument have no concept of reality.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:56 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Pawnmower View Post
This is a really flawed argument, since killing combatants in the field is legal (Geneva convention) and killing or torturing of captured/prisoners is not.

People who make this argument have no concept of reality.
So trying to follow the rule of international law is the reasoning. And I'm the one who has no concept of reality? OK
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Rulebook plus oversight for a non-lethal interrogation program - GWBush

No rules or oversight for assassination program that occassionally targets US citizens - BHObama

Whatever your opinion is of the interrogation program, that's a pretty stark contrast.
Ouch.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:04 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by stonedstooge View Post
So trying to follow the rule of international law is the reasoning. And I'm the one who has no concept of reality? OK
So are you suggesting we not follow international law?

Certainly if your stance is ignoring international law, then you wouldn't have a problem with drone strikes against enemy combatants...especially when congress has authorized military action against said enemy.

Even if you pay no mind to int'l law, we are following our own laws.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Rulebook plus oversight for a non-lethal interrogation program - GWBush

No rules or oversight for assassination program that occassionally targets US citizens - BHObama

Whatever your opinion is of the interrogation program, that's a pretty stark contrast.
yep stark contrast.

One is torture

One is war
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Rulebook plus oversight for a non-lethal interrogation program - GWBush

No rules or oversight for assassination program that occassionally targets US citizens - GWBush

Whatever your opinion is of the interrogation program, that's a pretty stark contrast.
Bush seems so conflicted
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:11 PM   #14
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yep stark contrast.

One is torture

One is war
They're both war and with one innocents aren't collateral damage.
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Old 11-25-2012, 03:15 PM   #15
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They're both war and with one innocents aren't collateral damage.
This isn't exactly honest...One happens in the field of combat....in a combat zone, in an area not controlled by our forces.

The other happens in the safety and security of an area we control.

The killing and torturing of prisoners under your control is considered morally wrong by a vast majority of people.

Killing in combat during wartime, while not pleasant, is not considered morally wrong by the vast majority of people.
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