Home Mail MemberMap Chat (0) Wallpapers
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > The Lounge > D.C.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-19-2012, 08:50 PM  
Chocolate Hog Chocolate Hog is offline
Winner
 
Chocolate Hog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: My house
Casino cash: $10307
Liberals on the board: Why is this guy wrong?

Posts: 34,853
Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.Chocolate Hog 's phone was tapped by Scott Pioli.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 01:32 PM   #91
Xanathol Xanathol is offline
Starter
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Casino cash: $6490
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
So...you don't believe that there are homeless or hungry children in this country?
I don't believe that there are enough of them to demand even a slim percentage of the taxes we currently pay, much less more. But if we keep down this path, maybe there will be!
Posts: 549
Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.Xanathol must have mowed badgirl's lawn.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 01:47 PM   #92
cosmo20002 cosmo20002 is offline
Debunking your bullshit
 
cosmo20002's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: KC area
Casino cash: $19684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
I don't believe that there are enough of them to demand even a slim percentage of the taxes we currently pay, much less more. But if we keep down this path, maybe there will be!
So you're for a social welfare system, with some changes. Socialist!
__________________
Posts: 20,106
cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.cosmo20002 is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 02:06 PM   #93
listopencil listopencil is offline
sic semper tyrannis
 
listopencil's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Partibus Infidelium
Casino cash: $11753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathol View Post
I don't believe that there are enough of them to demand even a slim percentage of the taxes we currently pay, much less more. But if we keep down this path, maybe there will be!
Our taxes don't only go to feeding and clothing children. If you mean that the portion of our taxes that is supposed to go towards needy children isn't always spent in an efficient manner I agree with you. It is always going to be like that. We will err on the side of overspending because the alternative is horrible. We also try to keep families together so that money (typically) gets paid to the parents/guardians of those children. Yes it's a ****ed up system. Because it's a ****ed up world. I'm not willing to eliminate social programs just because they aren't operating at maximum efficiency.
__________________
"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind I'd still be in prison."


Posts: 28,921
listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 02:13 PM   #94
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
Black for Palestine
 
Direckshun's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Springpatch
Casino cash: $21891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bo's Pelini View Post
Seems like suffering would guide people towards trying to be productive the difference between here and pick a shitty country is people here have opportunity.
How is that a response to post #4?
__________________
Posts: 46,663
Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.Direckshun is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 02:16 PM   #95
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
And statistics on TOTAL tax burden (not the disingenuous GOP demagoguery of focusing on only federal income taxes--the "47%") indicate that, they indeed do...inf fact, they pay a higher per cent of their total income in a variety of taxes than the upper 5% do. But, of course, that doesn't serve the class warfare rhetoric of the plutocrats and dittoheads.
Lumping payroll taxes in with income taxes ignores the fact that SS and Medicare are intended to be standalone, self-financing systems through which the ratio of input (taxes) and outflow (benefits) are separately maintained. High income folks only contribute a pittance to those programs because their benefits are only a pittance (in percentage terms of course).

There's no reason to combine the two for this type of analysis. If we're going to do that, let's just get rid of payroll taxes and accept the implied reality that SS and Medicare are evolving into welfare programs instead of the insurance/forced pensions they were originally intended to be.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 03:18 PM   #96
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2511
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Lumping payroll taxes in with income taxes ignores the fact that SS and Medicare are intended to be standalone, self-financing systems through which the ratio of input (taxes) and outflow (benefits) are separately maintained. High income folks only contribute a pittance to those programs because their benefits are only a pittance (in percentage terms of course).

There's no reason to combine the two for this type of analysis. If we're going to do that, let's just get rid of payroll taxes and accept the implied reality that SS and Medicare are evolving into welfare programs instead of the insurance/forced pensions they were originally intended to be.
What about sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, and countless other state and local taxes that are incredibly regressive....that poor, working, and middle class folks foks pay, that represent a much larger share of their income than the top 5% pay as a percent of their income? SS and Medicare are only a part of the picture...again, we should be focused on total tax burden, as a percent of income.

instead of getting rid of payroll taxes and, instead, addressing the reality of SS and Medicare as popularly backed programs that serve as a insurance/forced pension program, yes....but which should be funded by taxes collected on all income, instead of just income below certain caps. Remove the caps, and....magically, solvency of those programs improves substantially. Over-night.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,038
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 05:53 PM   #97
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
What about sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, and countless other state and local taxes that are incredibly regressive....that poor, working, and middle class folks foks pay, that represent a much larger share of their income than the top 5% pay as a percent of their income? SS and Medicare are only a part of the picture...again, we should be focused on total tax burden, as a percent of income.

instead of getting rid of payroll taxes and, instead, addressing the reality of SS and Medicare as popularly backed programs that serve as a insurance/forced pension program, yes....but which should be funded by taxes collected on all income, instead of just income below certain caps. Remove the caps, and....magically, solvency of those programs improves substantially. Over-night.
Payroll taxes are a big part of the picture for people trying to make the case that the overall system is flat or regressive.

I think the other taxes you mention should be included in your analysis, but I think it makes more sense in many cases to discuss overall federal tax load/distribution and overall state tax load/distribution seperately.

Your second paragraph is, again, a call to transform SS and Medicare into welfare programs. The further down that path you push things, the more they will become resented and ultimately subject to the same political forces that "ended welfare as we know it" during the Clinton administration, IMO.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 07:00 PM   #98
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2511
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Payroll taxes are a big part of the picture for people trying to make the case that the overall system is flat or regressive.

I think the other taxes you mention should be included in your analysis, but I think it makes more sense in many cases to discuss overall federal tax load/distribution and overall state tax load/distribution seperately.

Your second paragraph is, again, a call to transform SS and Medicare into welfare programs. The further down that path you push things, the more they will become resented and ultimately subject to the same political forces that "ended welfare as we know it" during the Clinton administration, IMO.
Payroll taxes are, indeed, regressive; that's why the caps on them should be removed. I don't even necessarily disagree that federal taxes should be discussed separately, because personally I do think everyone--even the poor and lower middle class folks who pay nothing now, SHOULD pay at least some symbolic amount (if for no other reason than to take away this silly 47% pay nothing demagoguerous bullcrap.)

Truthfully, everyone should pay something. However, given the bipartisan support in the past for the current structure and the "earned income" tax credit travesty...if push comes to shove, I expect a whole lot of supply siders realize that is money that is spent, quickly, in our economy--and thus, doubt it would be repealed. I'd like to be wrong about that though. Seriously.

Whether or not you or I like it (perhaps surprisingly, I don't either) SS and Medicare have become a sort social welfare program--though it is one that is funded by the primary participants themselves. That's why the idea that it will become 'resented' like true welfare is wrong, IMO; if anything, among all but the top 5-10% or so...it's become an intregal part of retirement planning. Again, I don't like that--but I live in the real world. It is what it is.

Thus a more constructive approach to fixing that reality would be securing the financial solvency of the programs; removing the current caps is a good starting point. However, means-testing (especially after payback for contributions + reasonable 'interest',) raising retirement ages, and allowing for more generous "working income" while retired or semi-retired should also be on the table IMHO.

FTR, this could (in a best case scenario) be an incremental step toward true tax reform, because I think once SS and Medicare and other popular and reasonable entitlements are secured....then, and only then, could we have a fair and even-handed debate over more radical tax reform--such as a flat tax or similar proposals, that could look more reasonable once the class warfare rhetoric and security for the working class are put to rest. FWIW, some libertarian-fiscal conservative Republican who would offer such a vision....could win the support of most Americans--including me.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,038
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 07:50 PM   #99
patteeu patteeu is offline
The 23rd Pillar
 
patteeu's Avatar
 

Join Date: Sep 2002
Casino cash: $5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Payroll taxes are, indeed, regressive; that's why the caps on them should be removed. I don't even necessarily disagree that federal taxes should be discussed separately, because personally I do think everyone--even the poor and lower middle class folks who pay nothing now, SHOULD pay at least some symbolic amount (if for no other reason than to take away this silly 47% pay nothing demagoguerous bullcrap.)
No, the SS system is progressive as it is. People with lower incomes get way more than their share as an input percentage back out again. People with higher incomes get way less than their share as an input percentage back out again.

There's no reason to transform Medicare into a welfare program other than the fact that our politicians have so far refused to address the real problem with health care, rapidly rising costs.
__________________


"I'll see you guys in New York." ISIS Caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi to US military personnel upon his release from US custody at Camp Bucca in Iraq during Obama's first year in office.
Posts: 75,744
patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 07:55 PM   #100
Dave Lane Dave Lane is offline
Space Cadet and Aczabel
 
Dave Lane's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Casino cash: $13779
VARSITY
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I agree with her quote.
As do I whole heartedly
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris616 View Post
High Tech is Sorcery and the people who are really powerful are literally telling people to commit crimes using the psychic interspace created by the WWW and Wireless. They are controlling peoples actions like drones . The two things are deeply intertwined. The more man's brain interfaces with machines the creepier it gets. They use brains separate from a human body in a supercomputer and you have The Image of the Beast. The military has been doing this since the 50s
Posts: 25,063
Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.Dave Lane is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 08:25 PM   #101
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2511
Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
No, the SS system is progressive as it is. People with lower incomes get way more than their share as an input percentage back out again. People with higher incomes get way less than their share as an input percentage back out again.

There's no reason to transform Medicare into a welfare program other than the fact that our politicians have so far refused to address the real problem with health care, rapidly rising costs.
Are you serious....SS "progressive?" Lower income people get more as a percentage of contributions, of course; the REAL issue is ability to pay, and percentage of income contributed, which is why the current set-up is big time regressive (benefitting those with higher incomes more.)

The reason for making Medicare/SS into a social welfare program is expectations of current Americans--it already is, and politically it simply is NOT possible at this point to pull that rug out from under the majority of Americans.

I tried to toss you some bones....means testing, raising retirement ages, allowing for more working income, but....surprise, surprise....you opted the reverse class-warfare model expoused by plutocrats. I'm shocked.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,038
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 09:46 PM   #102
RaiderH8r RaiderH8r is offline
Now it's Willie Time!
 
RaiderH8r's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Beating hippies
Casino cash: $7375
Quote:
Originally Posted by listopencil View Post
I agree with her quote.
The other part of that social contract is that everybody owes it to themselves and to the society that supports them to d their level best. If they don't then **** them because they are stealing from those that produce as well as those who truly need help.
__________________
You may think RaiderH8r is just a thinker. But Im not just a thinker. Im a doer. Every day I go out there, and rev that engine, fire it up, grab a hold of that line between speed and chaos, and wrestle it to the ground like a demon cobra. And when the fear rises up in my belly, I use it. Fear is powerful, because its been there for billions of years. And it is good. And I use it. And I ride it; I ride it like a skeleton horse through the gates of hell.
Posts: 3,282
RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.RaiderH8r Forgot to Remove His Claytex and Got Toxic Shock Syndrome.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 09:54 PM   #103
CoMoChief CoMoChief is online now
The Revolution Has Begun
 
CoMoChief's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KCMO
Casino cash: $9660
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Diddy View Post
For starters, who is going to build the roads we drive on?
The state govt
__________________
2014 Adopt-A-Chief: RT Donald Stephenson #79
Posts: 31,125
CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.CoMoChief threw an interception on a screen pass.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2012, 11:36 PM   #104
Mr. Kotter Mr. Kotter is offline
Lookin' for the answers...
 
Mr. Kotter's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Somewhere else
Casino cash: $2511
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderH8r View Post
The other part of that social contract is that everybody owes it to themselves and to the society that supports them to d their level best. If they don't then **** them because they are stealing from those that produce as well as those who truly need help.
Nope. Somewhere along the way....you confused American founding fathers with Marx, Lennin, and Stalin. "From each according to his ability, to each according to need," may be a RWNJ lunatic fringe curse--but it sure ain't real America.

The real irony is that RWNJ lunatic fringe types don't understand that....the social contract in our Democratic Republic requires just that--the difference being, that our system encourages our own volition (freedom, liberty, etc), whereas the bad guys coerce it through the threat and power of coercion by big, bad government. Except too many today mistake our freedom for a boogeyman of big, bad government that cannot even be imagined by the realities of American life...if one is remotely lucid. Of course, that is part of the issue though. Heh.
__________________
Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel, Alex Smith will be better than Geno or Cassel...
Posts: 40,038
Mr. Kotter has disabled reputation
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2012, 02:01 AM   #105
listopencil listopencil is offline
sic semper tyrannis
 
listopencil's Avatar
 

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In Partibus Infidelium
Casino cash: $11753
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderH8r View Post
The other part of that social contract is that everybody owes it to themselves and to the society that supports them to d their level best. If they don't then **** them because they are stealing from those that produce as well as those who truly need help.
I think the other part of it is to make sure that we have an economic system that rewards production. Rather than how you phrased it, I would say that our society owes it to its producers to do its level best to only take what is absolutely necessary and to do so in a fair manner.
__________________
"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind I'd still be in prison."


Posts: 28,921
listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.listopencil is obviously part of the inner Circle.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:11 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
A new website that shows member-created construction site listings that need fill or have excess fill. Dirt Monkey @ https://DirtMonkey.net
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.