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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:52 PM   #556
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
Lukid is protecting what they already have.
The Likud do not want to recognize Palestine. They also want all of Israel for themselves.
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Old 12-04-2012, 07:54 PM   #557
mlyonsd mlyonsd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
The Likud do not want to recognize Palestine. They also want all of Israel for themselves.
And you can thank the ongoing Palestinian onslaught for that.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:00 PM   #558
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by mlyonsd View Post
And you can thank the ongoing Palestinian onslaught for that.
There's lots of things we can thank for that.

To pretend this is simple is naive.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:30 PM   #559
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
How about the fact that it's as likely as Jews agreeing to a two-state solution without Jerusalem.
The Israelis won't agree to a demilitarized state either, but that's what the palestinians will need to agree to if they ever want a two state solution. It would be good for palestinians to remember the maxim that beggars can't be choosers. It would also be good for them to recognize that the longer they hold out and continue to kill Israelis, the less likely they are to maximize their final status.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:42 PM   #560
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
The Israelis won't agree to a demilitarized state either, but that's what the palestinians will need to agree to if they ever want a two state solution. It would be good for palestinians to remember the maxim that beggars can't be choosers. It would also be good for them to recognize that the longer they hold out and continue to kill Israelis, the less likely they are to maximize their final status.
There are deal breakers, and there are deal breakers.

A Jerusalem in sole possession of Israel is a dealbreaker to both the two-state solution and peace.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:06 PM   #561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post

A Jerusalem in sole possession of Israel is a dealbreaker to both the two-state solution and peace.
Thank God.

Your intellectual dishonesty is appalling.
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Old 12-05-2012, 12:52 PM   #562
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Oslo or no Oslo, building in E1 largely kills the two-state solution.
No, you are 100% wrong. Weird, you don't bring up the fact the palestinians killed it so many times first.

"Intensification of Palestinian terror in the years immediately following the signing of the accord led to disenchantment on the Israeli side."

"The Israeli's trust in the accords was undermined by the fact that immediately after the signing, the attacks against Israel intensified, which some explained as an attempt by certain Palestinian organizations to thwart the peace process. Others believed that the Palestinian Authority had no interest in stopping these attacks and was instead endorsing them. As evidence, they showed that when violence flared up in September 1996, Palestinian police turned their guns on the Israelis in clashes which left 61 Palestinians and 15 Israeli soldiers dead."

Broken.

The two side had an agreement the palestinians once again broke. In this case the Palestinians agreed to work directly with the people they want to destroy and NOT go to the UN.

"The 1995 Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement which created the PA, established a fundamental principle:

“Neither side shall initiate or take any step that will change the status of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip pending the outcome of the Permanent Status negotiations."

Broken.

"The Palestinian police force established under the Gaza-Jericho Agreement will be fully integrated into the Palestinian Police and will be subject to the provisions of this Agreement. Except for the Palestinian Police and the Israeli military forces, no other armed forces shall be established or operate in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip."

Broken.

Consisting of Articles XXII-XXVIII: Relations between Israel and the Council:

...shall accordingly abstain from incitement, including hostile propaganda, against each other...that their respective educational systems contribute to the peace between the Israeli and Palestinian peoples and to peace in the entire region, and will refrain from the introduction of any motifs that could adversely affect the process of reconciliation...cooperate in combating criminal activity which may affect both sides, including offenses related to trafficking in illegal drugs and psychotropic substances, smuggling, and offenses against property...

Broken.


"The fact that the Gaza Strip is fully controlled by Hamas who do not want peace with a Jewish state. According to the Israeli view, this limits the ability of the Palestinians to make peace with Israel and enforce it over the long term. Furthermore, in the Israeli view, a violent overtake of the West Bank by the Hamas as a result of the creation of an unstable new state is likely. Lastly, rhetoric from high-ranking Fatah officials promising a full, literal Palestinian right of return into Israel (a position no Israeli government can accept without destroying the Jewish character of Israel) makes peace negotiations more difficult for both sides."

You said, "To pretend this is simple is naive."

Yet it is way more simple than you make it. But I could see how you would think it was so complex since it is only the palestinians have always had an "all or nothing" approach to Israel with never a real commitment to peace.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interim...the_Gaza_Strip
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