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Old 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state."

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:46 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Uh, it does matter.

If you can understand why they believe what they believe, you can begin to influence it.

That's like... not even Diplomacy 101. Not even Psychology 101. That's not even the persuasion chapter in 9th grade.

That's what you learn when you're 8, bitching at your parents that you want another cookie.
I never cared for cookies all that much. It seems to me that the palestinians continue to get better treatment than they deserve.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:51 PM   #317
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So palestinians would rather jihad than accept a de-militarized, independent state that depends on those upstream for their water? Sounds like they don't want peace to me. Beggars shouldn't believe they have the luxury to be choosers.
iirc, it wasn't about upstream sources but water usage in the territories and control of that...

the concern is that israel would divert much of the available water to the use of settlements rather than palestinians...

and i don't view palestinians as beggars...

they are a people who deserve self-government just as much as any other people...

and regardless of your opinion i still believe palestinians will ultimately choose peace if it is actually offered to them in a deal that grants palestine sovereignty and control over their own state and its resources...

there are difficult issues to be negotiated but undermining hamas can only help lead to real solutions...

i would think that undermining hamas would be a goal of both israel and the pla in order to move toward peace...
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:56 PM   #318
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
It seems to me that the palestinians continue to get better treatment than they deserve.
Ah, systemic poverty, widespread malnutrician, and a reliance on humanitarian aid not to starve to death in large numbers.

Better treatment than they deserve, alright!
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:00 PM   #319
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iirc, it wasn't about upstream sources but water usage in the territories and control of that...

the concern is that israel would divert much of the available water to the use of settlements rather than palestinians...

and i don't view palestinians as beggars...

they are a people who deserve self-government just as much as any other people...

and regardless of your opinion i still believe palestinians will ultimately choose peace if it is actually offered to them in a deal that grants palestine sovereignty and control over their own state and its resources...

there are difficult issues to be negotiated but undermining hamas can only help lead to real solutions...

i would think that undermining hamas would be a goal of both israel and the pla in order to move toward peace...
Are you willing to require the palestinian state to be de-militarized even though that is a blow against their sovereignty just as the water control issue would be? Because given the hateful history of Israel's neighbors, Israel cannot accept the threat that would be created by establishing a palestinian state with an unlimited ability to militarize. Water is nearly as much of a security issue as weaponry.

Israel tried to partner with Fatah to undermine Hamas prior to Hamas' election in Gaza but Fatah failed to do what was necessary (arrests, disarmaments, etc.). My guess is that it was because the palestinian people wouldn't have allowed it. That means the problem is the people, not just Hamas.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:01 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Ah, systemic poverty, widespread malnutrician, and a reliance on humanitarian aid not to starve to death in large numbers.

Better treatment than they deserve, alright!
They could have much better than that if they demanded peace from their leaders instead of supporting war.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:03 PM   #321
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
They could have much better than that if they demanded peace from their leaders instead of supporting war.
They support themselves, as all peoples do.

They live in dire conditions, and they no longer trust that Israel has any interest in compromise.

So you can sit where you are in Shit House, Inc., or you can do something about it.

Through that perspective, electing Hamas makes some sense.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:08 PM   #322
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I never cared for cookies all that much. It seems to me that the palestinians continue to get better treatment than they deserve.
and what exactly do they deserve?

another 60 years of conflict and occupation?

a denial of human rights which are routinely accorded to other people?

dislocation and disruption of their communities and culture?

what is it that the palestinian people deserve?

and why do they deserve it?

because hamas is crazy and only concerned with staying in power, all palestinians should suffer?

because some palestinians continue to be radicalized and don't want peace?

what do they deserve because part of their leadership is violent and virulently anti-israel?

and what about the israelis? what do they deserve? most of the west bank and all of jerusalem? do you think they will ever find peace by pursuing those policies?

attitudes like yours are one reason that the conflict might not ever be settled...

it's not possible to find a basis to compromise and resolve the conflict if you're unwilling to take into account the rights of ordinary palestinians and view them as somehow not deserving of self-government and inalienable human rights...
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:18 PM   #323
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Are you willing to require the palestinian state to be de-militarized even though that is a blow against their sovereignty just as the water control issue would be? Because given the hateful history of Israel's neighbors, Israel cannot accept the threat that would be created by establishing a palestinian state with an unlimited ability to militarize. Water is nearly as much of a security issue as weaponry.

Israel tried to partner with Fatah to undermine Hamas prior to Hamas' election in Gaza but Fatah failed to do what was necessary (arrests, disarmaments, etc.). My guess is that it was because the palestinian people wouldn't have allowed it. That means the problem is the people, not just Hamas.
demilitarization of palestine is something that can and should be negotiated...

in an ideal world, palestine should have no restrictions on it's sovereignty but israel will never agree to that so the palestinian leadership has to be willing to agree to that in order to acheive peace...

iirc, fatah fought hamas in gaza but were defeated and expelled...

as for your guess, it's just that, a guess...

and based on your guess, you conclude that the problem is the palestinian people and not just hamas...

that's your opinion and you are entitled to it, i just think you're wrong in this instance (which is only my opinion, but based on reporting in the arab press, particularly aj which spends a lot of time covering the israeli-palestinian conflict)...
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:08 PM   #324
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Swing and a miss.

Hell that was barely even a swing. It's like you're not even trying to hit the ball.
No, I pretty much nailed it. According to Sullivan, Matthew's chief dick sucker, if Israel didn't continue these "incursions" the Palestinians wouldn't feel so "embittered" they'd feel the need to execute some of their own and drag their dead bodies around with motorcycles.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:12 PM   #325
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My point exactly.

You do not believe in any meaningful two-state solution. If you did, you have yet to describe it.

That's on you.
It all has to begin with "the Palestinians" and Hamas being willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Israel has demonstrated wanting and making peace with an enemy who was willing to do that (e.g. Egypt).

What have the Palestinians or Hamas demonstrated to show they are serious about peace with Israel?
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:14 PM   #326
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Hamas doesn't want to go along with it. Palestinians only follow them at this point because theirs is the only option that makes any amount of sense from their point of view.

Once you start legitimately, honestly acting and offering in favor of better solutions, that will change. And Hamas will either have to adapt to fit Palestinian wishes, or lose power.
That's beautiful. Just a reminder:

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:18 PM   #327
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It all has to begin with "the Palestinians" and Hamas being willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Israel has demonstrated wanting and making peace with an enemy who was willing to do that (e.g. Egypt).

What have the Palestinians or Hamas demonstrated to show they are serious about peace with Israel?
Bingo.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:02 PM   #328
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No, I pretty much nailed it.
Well that is just awesome.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #329
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It all has to begin with "the Palestinians" and Hamas being willing to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.
Even with that, you would refuse a two-state solution, would you not.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #330
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That's beautiful.
It's reality.
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