Int'l Issues November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state." - Page 21

Direckshun · 11-13-2012, 09:54 PM

Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN.

The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state.

While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN.

Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility.

But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity.

The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN.

As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name.

So things are going to get really, really fascinating.

I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid

Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid
By Flavia Krause-Jackson
on November 08, 2012

Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process.

The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power.

The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there.

The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News.

By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama.

In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN.

Issue Fades

The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago.

Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010.

Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said.

Still, the move isn’t without risks.

When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget.

The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states.

International Criminal Court

The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes.

“Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.”

The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel.

As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

**patteeu** · 11-20-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ForeverChiefs58

Masked gunmen publicly shot dead six suspected collaborators with Israel in a large Gaza City intersection Tuesday, witnesses said.

...

Israel relies on a network of local informers to identify its targets in Gaza.

These killings were Israel's fault for trying to minimize collateral damage.

**Iowanian** · 11-20-2012, 01:00 PM

I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports.

mnchiefsguy · 11-20-2012, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports.

Direckshun is the master of not supporting Hamas, while supporting Hamas.

vailpass · 11-20-2012, 01:07 PM

If Palestine wants a fight they should be allowed to have it.

Let slip the Jews.

HonestChieffan · 11-20-2012, 01:46 PM

Gotta love the far left and how bizarre some of them can be. Rockets are "not that scary" if they fall in Israel and you are a LibHag from ****ing Nashville. These people disgust me.
Helen Thomas would be proud.

http://redalertpolitics.com/2012/11/...rrorist-group/

Approximately 100 protesters gathered near the Vanderbilt University campus in Nashville on Saturday to protest Israel’s response to the recent barrage of Hamas rocket attacks. Hamas allies have launched 1,300 rocket attacks so far this year, and Israel has recently responded by precision targeting rocket launch sites and ammunition storage facilities, in addition to Hamas political infrastructure. Israel’s attempt to diminish terrorist capabilities has been done with precautions to minimize loss of innocent life. In fact, Israel continues to transport food for Gaza residents across the border even throughout the present conflict. Yet, as I interviewed many of those at the protest, the open hostility to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state and refusal to condemn Hamas was stunning.

One protester claimed ALL of Israel is on occupied land, including Tel Aviv, Jaffa, and Haifa. According to him, “Every square foot of Palestine is owned by the Palestinians. The Israelites have no reason to stay there, ever.” He went on to stay, “Your citizens are not supposed to be there. This land is not yours! Move off! Move back to Europe where you came from.” Another sign he held proclaimed “the imposter Jews should go back to Asia.”

A lady claimed the Israeli response to the Hamas rocket attacks is “almost the same” as the Holocaust which claimed the lives of over 6 million people. Several young children apparently with her gathered around a sign claiming that Israel’s military actions – a defense of herself against Gaza terrorists- is tantamount to another “holocaust.”

Another lady at the protest claimed that the Hamas rocket attacks are “not even that scary” and that “Israel is the great aggressor.” She also inaccurately declared that “no one has been allowed in or out [of Gaza] since 2007” and bizarrely claimed that Hamas has only fired “a couple of rockets back” at Israel. Furthermore, she stated Israel’s response in Gaza is “ethnic cleansing and genocide.”

go bowe · 11-20-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

This is nonsense, IMO. It didn't work to turn the palestinian people against Arafat's PLO (instead he rallied the 2nd intifada against Israel) so why should it work to turn them against Hamas?

it didn't work because the deals offered were unrealistic and unreasonable...

for example the deal everyone talks about being rejected by arafat would have allowed israel to control water rights for the west bank, which is unacceptable in an arid land...

we don't know what a reasonable deal would do in terms of hamas losing popular support because no such deal has ever been offered...

we don't have to "turn them against" hamas, we only need for them to vote them out...

i'm not saying that such an offer would necessarily work, but whatever has been tried for the last 60 some years hasn't worked yetl...

maybe a new approach might yield the results that most israelis and palestinians want, which is peace and freedom...

HonestChieffan · 11-20-2012, 04:02 PM

The Hamas Covenant specifically addresses these "approaches" that people keep talking about.

Article Thirteen:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."

Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?

"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:

"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."

Anyone who thinks Hamas has any interest in coexistance is terribly uninformed.

Reading this helps understand...http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

**patteeu** · 11-20-2012, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by go bowe

it didn't work because the deals offered were unrealistic and unreasonable...

for example the deal everyone talks about being rejected by arafat would have allowed israel to control water rights for the west bank, which is unacceptable in an arid land...

we don't know what a reasonable deal would do in terms of hamas losing popular support because no such deal has ever been offered...

we don't have to "turn them against" hamas, we only need for them to vote them out...

i'm not saying that such an offer would necessarily work, but whatever has been tried for the last 60 some years hasn't worked yetl...

maybe a new approach might yield the results that most israelis and palestinians want, which is peace and freedom...

So palestinians would rather jihad than accept a de-militarized, independent state that depends on those upstream for their water? Sounds like they don't want peace to me. Beggars shouldn't believe they have the luxury to be choosers.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger

Pretty sure, eh?

No, no deal.

My point exactly.

You do not believe in any meaningful two-state solution. If you did, you have yet to describe it.

That's on you.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

It doesn't require time travel for palestinians to unite under leadership that would oust Hamas, defang militants and make a real peace with Israel. It won't happen because there aren't enough palestinians who want that. Whether that's because they've been misled to believe that Israel is evil or because they are evil themselves doesn't really matter.

Uh, it does matter.

If you can understand why they believe what they believe, you can begin to influence it.

That's like... not even Diplomacy 101. Not even Psychology 101. That's not even the persuasion chapter in 9th grade.

That's what you learn when you're 8, bitching at your parents that you want another cookie.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

Why would Hamas go along with this pipe dream? Why wouldn't they create another conflict to make sure that the Gaza palestinians continue to need their protection? Is Israel then supposed to bend over and take it no matter how many Israelis die to avoid playing into Hamas' hands? This is an unworkable plan as long as there isn't a glimmer of hope that Hamas might be willing to choose peace and based on your posts in this thread you seem to concede that that glimmer doesn't exist.

Hamas doesn't want to go along with it. Palestinians only follow them at this point because theirs is the only option that makes any amount of sense from their point of view.

Once you start legitimately, honestly acting and offering in favor of better solutions, that will change. And Hamas will either have to adapt to fit Palestinian wishes, or lose power.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyonsd

Andrew Sullivan says this kind of behavior is Israel's fault.

Swing and a miss.

Hell that was barely even a swing. It's like you're not even trying to hit the ball.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian

I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports.

What is it that you think I support?

I'm all ears, beautiful.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnchiefsguy

Direckshun is the master of not supporting Hamas, while supporting Hamas.

Seeing as how you don't even read my posts, I'm not sure what role you think you're playing in this conversation.

Cheerleader for the guys that do? That's fun.

Direckshun · 11-20-2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patteeu

So palestinians would rather jihad than accept a de-militarized, independent state that depends on those upstream for their water? Sounds like they don't want peace to me. Beggars shouldn't believe they have the luxury to be choosers.

Self-determination is the name of the game. Just keep that in mind.

11-13-2012, 09:54 PM
Direckshun Black for Palestine Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Springpatch Casino cash: $1166271	November 29: The UN will vote to recognize Palestine as a "state." Currently, Palestine is a non-member observer entity in the UN. The Palestinians have pressed forth to introduce a measure to upgrade them in the UN's eyes to a non-member observer state. While being upgraded from non-member observer entity to non-member observer state doesn't sound like much, it does provide Palestine an opportunity to actually contribute and perform within the UN. Most damning, of course, is that it would tell Israel and the United States that their treatment of Palestine is tantamount to suppression of what should be a legitimate, free country. An act bordering on apartheid, which the ICC (run by the UN, which could soon include Palestine) as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them." I don't regard that as a possibility. But essentially, this has the ability to be a game changer in favor of two-state negotiations in favor of the Palestinian people, as opposed to the Likud/GOP alliance, which does not want any such two-state solution. All the facts on the ground right now favor Israel, as they expand their land, take more of the Palestinian land, and pretend with each passing year that the '67 borders with agreed-upon land swaps is some crime against Israel's humanity. The only real arrow in Palestine's quiver is international opinion. And this particular vote in the UN cannot be unilaterally shot down by the United States, so it is sure to be voted on, and sure to be passed by roughly 75% of the UN. As such, the United States and Israel are, understandably, freaking the **** out. The US is threatening to withdraw funding for much of the UN. Israel is threatening to discard the Oslo Accord, which allowed Palestine self-governance. This could potentially mean apartheid in everything but name. So things are going to get really, really fascinating. I ultimately think that Israel and the US' bark is worse than their bite. Obama prides himself on effective diplomacy which cannot happen if he's going to war with the UN. Israel's Netanyahu is far less concerned with international opinion, but doesn't want Israel to end up on the wrong side of the distinction between internationally frowned-upon to internationally despised. Though he may be heading that way anyway. http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...rver-state-bid Palestinians Defy Obama With UN ‘Observer State’ Bid By Flavia Krause-Jackson on November 08, 2012 Palestinians defied newly re-elected U.S. President Barack Obama by pushing ahead with a second statehood bid at the United Nations that will raise their profile at the world body and highlight the stagnation of the Mideast peace process. The Palestinian Authority yesterday circulated a resolution to put the Palestine Liberation Organization on a par with the Holy See, according to a draft that will be put to a vote in the UN’s 193-member General Assembly, where the initiative has enough support to pass and the U.S. lacks veto power. The latest steps by the Palestinians present Obama with his first foreign-policy challenge three days after he won a second term. A year ago, the Palestinians abandoned an attempt to be recognized as a full member state through the Security Council after Obama indicated the U.S. would use its veto there. The PLO, which currently is an observer “entity,” is seeking a nonmember “observer state status,” according to the draft obtained by Bloomberg News. By resurrecting the statehood issue in the General Assembly, the Palestinian leadership is trying to force the White House to pay attention to a moribund Palestinian-Israeli peace process that has dropped off the list of foreign-policy priorities for Obama. In doing so, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas is jeopardizing relations with Obama, as well as about $500 million in U.S. economic and security aid that members of Congress have threatened to cut if Palestinians proceed at the UN. Issue Fades The Palestinians have seen their cause fall into relative obscurity internationally since formal peace talks with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government were frozen two years ago. Peace talks stumbled over the issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank, which Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six-Day War. Abbas said he wouldn’t return to negotiations unless Israel froze all settlement construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem. Netanyahu has refused to renew a 10-month freeze on construction that expired in 2010. Abbas will present the resolution in person in New York, according to a UN official speaking on condition of anonymity. A vote is expected to take place by the end of the month, the official said. Still, the move isn’t without risks. When the Palestinian Authority was accepted last year into the UN cultural agency UNESCO, best known for its designation of “world heritage” sites, the U.S. response was to cut off funding that provides almost a quarter of the agency’s budget. The U.S. has said that American law would require similar cutoffs for any UN agency that grants the Palestinians the same status as member states. International Criminal Court The upgrade may open the door for Palestinians to join other UN agencies, including the International Criminal Court, where they could ask for Israel to be tried for war crimes. “Israel’s main worry is the ICC,” Palestinian chief negotiator Saeb Erakat said in an Oct. 24 interview. “They don’t want me to have a sword on their neck.” The initiative could also jeopardize international aid that accounts for about 14 percent of the Palestinians’ gross domestic product and invite retaliatory measures from Israel. As for the U.S., the administration’s position hasn’t wavered. The U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, has said repeatedly that “unilateral actions,” such as the upgrade of the Palestinians’ UN status, would only derail efforts to restart direct peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
Posts: 37,460

11-20-2012, 01:00 PM	#302
Iowanian Hey Jack! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Jolly Barnyard Casino cash: $417168	I think the images of an "Israeli sympathizer" being dragged through the streets behind motorcycles should show Direkshun exactly what she supports. __________________ "Silence is Golden. Duct Tape is silver"
Posts: 48,114

11-20-2012, 01:07 PM	#304
vailpass Yah Mules! Join Date: Sep 2001 Casino cash: $196250	If Palestine wants a fight they should be allowed to have it. Let slip the Jews. __________________ It don't matter what line we hand you When we come a crawlin' in. We ain't wrong, we ain't sorry, An' it's probably gonna happen again. T. Byrd
Posts: 30,801

11-20-2012, 01:46 PM	#305
HonestChieffan Hoffa called me an SOB Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the Country in MO Casino cash: $1220184	Gotta love the far left and how bizarre some of them can be. Rockets are "not that scary" if they fall in Israel and you are a LibHag from ****ing Nashville. These people disgust me. Helen Thomas would be proud. http://redalertpolitics.com/2012/11/...rrorist-group/ Approximately 100 protesters gathered near the Vanderbilt University campus in Nashville on Saturday to protest Israel’s response to the recent barrage of Hamas rocket attacks. Hamas allies have launched 1,300 rocket attacks so far this year, and Israel has recently responded by precision targeting rocket launch sites and ammunition storage facilities, in addition to Hamas political infrastructure. Israel’s attempt to diminish terrorist capabilities has been done with precautions to minimize loss of innocent life. In fact, Israel continues to transport food for Gaza residents across the border even throughout the present conflict. Yet, as I interviewed many of those at the protest, the open hostility to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state and refusal to condemn Hamas was stunning. One protester claimed ALL of Israel is on occupied land, including Tel Aviv, Jaffa, and Haifa. According to him, “Every square foot of Palestine is owned by the Palestinians. The Israelites have no reason to stay there, ever.” He went on to stay, “Your citizens are not supposed to be there. This land is not yours! Move off! Move back to Europe where you came from.” Another sign he held proclaimed “the imposter Jews should go back to Asia.” A lady claimed the Israeli response to the Hamas rocket attacks is “almost the same” as the Holocaust which claimed the lives of over 6 million people. Several young children apparently with her gathered around a sign claiming that Israel’s military actions – a defense of herself against Gaza terrorists- is tantamount to another “holocaust.” Another lady at the protest claimed that the Hamas rocket attacks are “not even that scary” and that “Israel is the great aggressor.” She also inaccurately declared that “no one has been allowed in or out [of Gaza] since 2007” and bizarrely claimed that Hamas has only fired “a couple of rockets back” at Israel. Furthermore, she stated Israel’s response in Gaza is “ethnic cleansing and genocide.” __________________ "The best time to sell peanuts is when the circus is in town."
Posts: 21,869

11-20-2012, 04:02 PM	#307
HonestChieffan Hoffa called me an SOB Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the Country in MO Casino cash: $1220184	The Hamas Covenant specifically addresses these "approaches" that people keep talking about. Article Thirteen: Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know." Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers? "But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120). There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith: "The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation." Anyone who thinks Hamas has any interest in coexistance is terribly uninformed. Reading this helps understand...http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp __________________ "The best time to sell peanuts is when the circus is in town."
Posts: 21,869

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