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Old 07-20-2012, 11:41 AM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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The Fiscal Cliff Approacheth

In an effort to make this thread sticky-worthy, I am going to update this OP to keep casual glancers informed.

This post is the official one-stop shopping of the key points/developments of the fiscal cliff negotiations.

Far as I understand, the fiscal cliff:

1. Gets rid of the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy.
2. Gets rid of the Bush tax cuts for everybody else.
3. Slashes defense spending by something like $500 billion.
4. Slashes domestic programs like the NIH, Head Start, and medicine/drug care for the poor by $500 billion.

The new idea is for Democrats to allow the cliff to hit, then immediately introduce a bill that would bring 2, 4, and some of 3 back. But not 1.

Here is a chart detailing exactly what the fiscal cliff is going to do, financially:

Spoiler!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
New CBO projection: if the fiscal cliff hits, we are in another recession, and lose two million jobs.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...87L0JV20120822
The poor would be hurt by the fiscal cliff:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Overall, if the tax breaks from the 2009 stimulus are allowed to expire—the EITC and Child Tax Credit expansions, along with American Opportunity Credit for college tuition—the poorest 20 percent of Americans would see their taxes go up by $209 on average, reducing their after-tax income by 1.9 percent, according to the Tax Policy Center.
As would the middle class:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
According to estimates by the Tax Policy Center, more than half of all married couples will owe an additional tax of around $4,000 unless Congress acts. And more than a third of families with children will fall subject to the AMT, with parents of three or more children facing an extra tax of $4,700.

Among married couples with at least two children and adjusted gross income between $75,000 and $100,000, the center estimates that 84 percent will face a significantly higher tax bill this year because of the AMT.
There seems to be some consensus between the parties that substantial revenues want to be raised. Boehner and the GOP hopes that's through limiting tax deductions rather than tax raises.

Obama's opening offer, essentially:

Quote:
  • Allow the Bush tax cuts on high earners to expire. $849 billion
  • Limit itemized deductions to 28 percent, close some loopholes and deductions on high earners, eliminate tax breaks for oil and gas companies, eliminate the carried interest loophole, plus a few other items. $584 billion
  • Create a special "Buffett Rule" tax rate for millionaires. $47 billion
  • Restore the estate tax to 2009 levels. $143 billion
  • Limit corporate income shifting to low-tax countries. $148 billion
  • Other miscellaneous tax increases and reductions. About -$200 billion
  • Total: $1.6 trillion

Last edited by Direckshun; 11-14-2012 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:24 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by ILChief View Post
It will be worth trashing the economy to keep rich people from paying more taxes /republicans
The "rich" and everybody else already pay enough in taxes.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:26 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TheLampshade View Post
Obama didn't run in 2008 on repealing the Bush Tax Cuts-- that issue didn't come to the forefront until 2010.
Letting them expire was a plank in the Obama platform in 2008.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:26 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
There's a reason majorities don't do that.
Because they don't want to have to put up with it when they're minorities.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:58 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
During the Bush administration?

Are you saying Republicans now are filibustering just as much as Democrats were in the Bush administration?
I'm saying that when democrats were recently in the minority, their use of the filibuster was at an unprecedented level, particularly when it comes to judicial appointments, but in general as well. I guess we can argue about what constitutes "abuse", if anything, but democrats have no room to complain about what they've been reaping for the past few years.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:59 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Because they don't want to have to put up with it when they're minorities.
No, because it's so much harder on the majority.
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:10 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Lightrise View Post
At some point my friend, you have to take responsibility for ignorance. Or, you risk being exposed. It has become hilarious to see the golden rats hurl this right wing extreme talk radio vomit out for the other golden rats. The Budget Control Act passed by both houses and signed by the president is the law. In that bill, there is specific language, specific, that the act replaces the NON BINDING Budget Resolution. It is this budget resolution, which really doesn't amount to anything, and is not required under current law, that is often being erroneously repeated for political purposes.

So, you're either doing that and you are now exposed for it, or there's the ignorance problem. In the end, all golden rats march one by one into the sea of irrelevancy.
Regardless of your condescension, has Reid passed a budget or not? btw, I don't listen to wack job radio or watch wack job nightly opinion shows from either side, but thanks...
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Old 09-21-2012, 12:30 PM   #67
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:08 AM   #68
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Old 10-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #69
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o snap

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...y.html?hpid=z1

Officials: Obama ready to veto a bill blocking ‘fiscal cliff’ without tax hike for rich
By Lori Montgomery
October 17

President Obama is prepared to veto legislation to block year-end tax hikes and spending cuts, collectively known as the “fiscal cliff,” unless Republicans bow to his demand to raise tax rates for the wealthy, administration officials said.

Freed from the political and economic constraints that have tied his hands in the past, Obama is ready to play hardball with Republicans, who have so far successfully resisted a deal to tame the debt that includes higher taxes, Obama’s allies say.

In the days after the November election, the tables will be turned: Taxes are scheduled to rise dramatically in January for people at all income levels, and Republicans will be unable to stop those automatic increases alone.

If he wins reelection, Obama may finally be able to dictate the terms of a bipartisan debt-reduction deal. And if he loses to Republican Mitt Romney, Obama could make sure that tax rates rise before he hands over the keys to the White House on Inauguration Day in late January.

Administration officials declined to say whether the veto threat will stand if Obama loses the election.

Obama has never explicitly said whether he is prepared to let the new year arrive without taking action to avoid the cliff. Some Republicans, noting that the president has backed off demands for higher taxes twice in the past, are skeptical that he will stand firm now. But his veto threat challenges Republicans to a dangerous game of chicken over a fiscal event that would raise taxes for nearly 90 percent of households, slice deeply into military and domestic budgets, and probably spark a brief recession.

House Speaker John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) and other Republican leaders are already complaining about the president’s “ ‘Thelma and Louise’ economic strategy.” (In the 1991 film, the lead characters drive off a cliff in a 1966 Thunderbird convertible rather than surrender to police.)

But Obama’s threat has concentrated their attention. If the president emerges victorious on Election Day, top GOP aides in both chambers say Republicans would press him to abandon his quest to raise the top rates, in exchange for a more meaningful prize — a long-sought agreement to stabilize the debt, in part with significant new tax revenue. Virtually all Republicans have long opposed higher taxes.

“That’s the solution to the Rubik’s Cube: The current president wants additional revenues. Republicans don’t want higher tax rates,” said Jonathan Traub of Deloitte Tax LLP, who served until earlier this year as a senior aide to House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp (R-Mich.). Rewriting the tax code to increase tax collections without raising rates, Traub said, is “the only way to make the squares line up.”

Impediments to a deal are legion. Democrats pumped up on an Obama victory would resist compromise on the top rate, a point of partisan contention since it fell from 39.6 percent to 35 percent more than a decade ago as part of a package of tax cuts signed by President George W. Bush.

The Bush tax cuts, which decreased rates at all income levels, are set to expire Dec. 31. Obama and other Democrats want to extend them for income under $250,000 a year, maintaining the low rates for about 97 percent of taxpayers.

But Obama has been promising to eliminate the Bush tax cuts for the top 3 percent of households since the 2008 campaign, and liberals were furious with his decision to extend them in 2010.

Last week, Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) planted a flag firmly for returning the top rate to 39.6 percent, arguing that Obama has made higher taxes for the rich a centerpiece of his reelection campaign and that polls show the public overwhelmingly supports the Democratic position.

“We have worked very hard to separate tax breaks for the rich from tax breaks for the middle class, on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue,” said Schumer, the No. 3 Democrat in the Senate. “The fact that we’re winning on this issue is a sea change.”

Some Republicans — such as Sen. Jim DeMint (R-S.C.), a tea-party favorite — have conceded that an Obama election victory would amount to a mandate to raise the top rates. But Boehner recently ruled out that idea, and senior GOP aides say letting the top rate rise, even briefly, above 35 percent is a line party leaders cannot cross.

“The hard truth, which even the president’s advisers must know, is that raising those tax rates will have a major effect on small businesses and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs,” said Boehner spokesman Kevin Smith. “In this troubled economy, it’s hard to see how anyone in a post-election scenario could be for that.”

Still, Republicans acknowledge that Obama could emerge from the November election with a strong hand, and policy aides in both chambers are sorting through ideas for raising taxes on the rich without raising rates.

One option is revisiting the terms of a deal Obama discussed with Boehner and House Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) during last year’s battle over the federal debt limit. At that time, Republicans offered to generate $800 billion in fresh cash for the government over the next decade through an overhaul of the tax code and Obama agreed to push the top rate below 35 percent.

But Democrats say they would want far more than $800 billion if Obama wins. Even if the parties could agree on a revenue number, no one believes lawmakers could rewrite the code before hitting the cliff in January. So the tax-writing committees would have to do the rewrite next year, leaving the issue of where to set the top rate in 2013 as one of the thorniest barriers to a deal.

Policy analysts in both parties are focused on the question of 2013, and have come up with an array of ideas for extracting about $55 billion from wealthy taxpayers next year while keeping the top rate at 35 percent. Among the ideas under discussion: a temporary surtax on millionaires along the lines of what Obama has called the “Buffet rule,” and a temporary cap on the value of deductions and other tax breaks claimed by top earners, an idea backed by Obama and endorsed by Romney for taxpayers at all income levels.

Top Republicans say they may also be willing to sweeten the year-end pot by throwing an increase in the debt ceiling into the mix. The nation is due to hit the $16.4 trillion borrowing limit in the spring, and lifting it this year would avoid a repeat of the ugly battle that dominated Washington a year ago and threatened to rock world financial markets.

Strategists on Capitol Hill are also gaming out a Romney victory, which could prove complicated as well. Romney has called for legislation to maintain the Bush tax rates for people at all income levels through 2013 to give the new administration time to craft its own tax and spending plans.

The House has already passed such legislation, as well as a bill to replace scheduled Pentagon cuts with cuts to food stamps and other social programs. If Obama continued during the lame-duck session of Congress to block those measures, with or without the help of Senate Democrats, Republicans could simply revive them in January, after Romney takes office.

But undoing the tax increases after the fact could prove difficult. GOP tax aides note that, once tax rates rise, any move to lower them again would increase the budget deficit, creating procedural as well as political problems.

Even if Republicans take control of the Senate, they have little hope of winning a 60-vote majority. And they would be unable to use a fast-track procedure known as reconciliation to protect a deficit-raising tax bill from a Democratic filibuster.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:44 PM   #70
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So can a president veto the expiration of a Law???????? How does one do that?
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #71
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Stupid move to threaten. Especially when your base has lost faith and the other guy has your nuts
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishingRod View Post
So can a president veto the expiration of a Law???????? How does one do that?
Obama can't veto the Fiscal Cliff.

He can just veto any legislation designed to stave off the Fiscal Cliff if he doesn't like it.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:48 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Obama can't veto the Fiscal Cliff.

He can just veto any legislation designed to stave off the Fiscal Cliff if he doesn't like it.
This and he will regardless if he wins the election or not. If the Republicans want to drive the American economy over a cliff so the top 1% can keep their Bush era tax cuts, then thats what will happen,
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:55 PM   #74
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How much "extra" money would be generated by raising the rates on "the rich"? Has anyone actually done that calculation?
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:57 PM   #75
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How much "extra" money would be generated by raising the rates on "the rich"? Has anyone actually done that calculation?
Doesn't matter, they must chip in as part of a larger deal. To allow the rich to keep tax cuts that they don't need is malpractice of government.

And the Dems will not let Grover Norquist and his pledge stand another year. He has too much power and needs to be taken down. He is not an elected official.
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