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Old 01-08-2011, 12:09 PM  
JohnnyV13 JohnnyV13 is offline
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Arizona congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot at public event

Giffords shot at meet n greet in front of a tucson safeway. Early reports 12 wounded. 4 confirmed dead, early reports say giffords was shot in the head. 3 of her staff are also wounded. No report from the hospital on giffords.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:35 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Because some people on the left are just as much on the warpath as they claim the right is. Things are very tense right now. There's gonna be some insanity, hysteria and finger pointing. None of it will help.
Perhaps.

But the right and the tea party people need to realize that this violence rhetoric never helps. Creating anger with words and images leads to violence...history has proven this to be true.

Whether or not this shooter had real political ties remains to be seen. But this gun-toting palin/beck/tea party shit is way over the line. I feel bad for old school Republicans like Bob Dole who have to be identified with those idiots.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:36 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by Wickedson View Post
The judge who was killed was involved in an intense immigration case where he had been receiving death threats...

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-roll-2011-1
The judge lived in the area and had just visited the event, wasn't a scheduled or promoted attendee. I doubt he had anything to do with motive.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:36 PM   #138
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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BEP, this isn't me taking shots at libertarian philosophy. This is me living in tuscon and me being in giffords district. I actually have seen both giffords and her 2010 opponent jesse kelly in local meet n greets.

There are a lot of fringe types who talk libertarian rhetoric but are hardly philosophical purists. In the local repub (kelly) events, these were the maddest types. Combine that with youth and an arizona wild west attitude and you've got a bad formula.

Obviously, there are nutjobs of every stripe. But i have played poker with a number of young guys here who spout mangled libetarian stuff they get from glenn beck. They call themselves libertarian and are really socially obnoxious. (As in wanting to talk politics at a poker game).

Its pure speculation at this point and isn't really sound of me to engage in it. And i know that. The number of these types i see here have somewhat jaundiced me toward libertarian views.
Sorry, the purist argument is not gonna fly on this one because for all the different kinds of libertarians there are, and it is a big tent that runs from left to right, the one thing they have in common which classifies them as libertarian is the non-aggression doctrine. Beware of false prophets in that movement and look for that identifier. Just because someone calls them self a libertarian doesn't make it so. There are way too many around today donning this label who aren't. They just have a shallow understanding as to what it means.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:38 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Pants View Post
A Glock.

20+1.

I would guess a 9mm since the Congresswoman was not instantly killed from a shot to the head.
Probably this.
The popularity of 9mm's is their high capacity magazines.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:48 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Sorry, the purist argument is not gonna fly on this one because for all the different kinds of libertarians there are, and it is a big tent that runs from left to right, the one thing they have in common which classifies them as libertarian is the non-aggression doctrine. Beware of false prophets in that movement and look for that identifier. Just because someone calls them self a libertarian doesn't make it so. There are way too many around today donning this label who aren't. They just have a shallow understanding as to what it means.
Meanings are fluid. There is definitely a militaristic flavor to the libertarian/tea-party movement. If there is a "true" libertarian philosophy that doesn't embrace the change-by-violence rhetoric, it's time for them to step up and distance themselves from those that do. Or own it.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:48 PM   #141
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Damn that is horrible and my thoughts and prayers go out to the families effected by this.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:50 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Wickedson View Post
Perhaps.

But the right and the tea party people need to realize that this violence rhetoric never helps. Creating anger with words and images leads to violence...history has proven this to be true.

Whether or not this shooter had real political ties remains to be seen. But this gun-toting palin/beck/tea party shit is way over the line. I feel bad for old school Republicans like Bob Dole who have to be identified with those idiots.
The flaw here, again, is that many self-proclaimed Tea Partiers are NOT either. For those who want to pin the blame on libertarians, they are the ones calling out the Tea Partiers, not the original ones but the hijackers, calling them out for an imperial foreign policy. ( which is aggressive and violent). Those who jumped on the TP bandwagon later, as opposed to sooner, was entirely a reaction to the Obama's and the current Democrats in congress domestic policies.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/kinzer2.1.1.html
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:50 PM   #143
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Sarah Palin on her website posted Gifford's photo with superimposed telescopic sight crosshairs over Gifford's head, along with the suggestion that we "reload". Now removed, of course. Did she pull the trigger,no, could her words incite and inflame, of course, and as a public figure should be accountable for her words.

It could come out that her words and pictures had nothing to do with this tragedy, might just be a coincidence, we may never know but shame on Sarah Palin for even making us question it.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by dirk digler View Post
Damn that is horrible and my thoughts and prayers go out to the families effected by this.
Me too especially that 9 month old.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #145
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:51 PM   #146
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Meanings are fluid. There is definitely a militaristic flavor to the libertarian/tea-party movement. If there is a "true" libertarian philosophy that doesn't embrace the change-by-violence rhetoric, it's time for them to step up and distance themselves from those that do. Or own it.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:52 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
Meanings are fluid. There is definitely a militaristic flavor to the libertarian/tea-party movement. If there is a "true" libertarian philosophy that doesn't embrace the change-by-violence rhetoric, it's time for them to step up and distance themselves from those that do. Or own it.
Meh. I've never advocated shooting congresspeople, so I'm not going to waste any time or effort distancing myself from something I've never embraced.

I will continue to believe in small government.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:55 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by Toadkiller View Post
Sarah Palin on her website posted Gifford's photo with superimposed telescopic sight crosshairs over Gifford's head, along with the suggestion that we "reload". Now removed, of course. Did she pull the trigger,no, could her words incite and inflame, of course, and as a public figure should be accountable for her words.

It could come out that her words and pictures had nothing to do with this tragedy, might just be a coincidence, we may never know but shame on Sarah Palin for even making us question it.
Wow. I probably have watched to many Law and Orders but this seems something that she could possibly get in trouble for.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:56 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
Meanings are fluid. There is definitely a militaristic flavor to the libertarian/tea-party movement. If there is a "true" libertarian philosophy that doesn't embrace the change-by-violence rhetoric, it's time for them to step up and distance themselves from those that do. Or own it.
99% of libertarian stuff you read/see emphasizes peace. It may have a fetish for Revolutionary War costumes and the like, but you could go to one of these conventions (example: Porcfest) and not one person there would dream of violent uprising/shooting a congresswoman in the head.

Your comment about "it's time for a libertarian group to step up and denounce the behavior of its radicals in the movement" is childish and similar in tone to xenophobic assholes who demand that the Nation of Islam stand up and denounce the behavior of terrorists.
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:57 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by cdcox View Post
Meanings are fluid. There is definitely a militaristic flavor to the libertarian/tea-party movement. If there is a "true" libertarian philosophy that doesn't embrace the change-by-violence rhetoric, it's time for them to step up and distance themselves from those that do. Or own it.
No they're not. Words and labels have meanings. Those calling them fluid just want license to abuse their meanings or are too lazy to really look them up or study.
Again, your understanding of libertarianism is also based on msm popular babble or what you hear people claim as opposed to study of the actually authors of that movement. It begins and ends with the non-aggression doctrine—PERIOD!
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