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Old 02-12-2010, 09:14 AM  
patteeu patteeu is offline
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Ron Paul Deceived. BucEyedPea Believed. (The Fabricated Reagan Quote)

I mentioned this in an earlier thread, but I wanted to create a separate thread where BucEyedPea can feel free to admit that Ron Paul was wrong or argue endlessly with me about it if she's still in denial without hijacking another thread.

In July of 2006, Ron Paul got up in front of the House of Representatives to speak in opposition to a resolution condemning Hezbollah's attack against Israel. In his statement, he quoted Ronald Reagan to bolster his case. I should say he "mis-quoted" Reagan though, because as it turns out the quote was FABRICATED.

Since then, BucEyedPea has repeatedly referenced that quote here on the pages of ChiefsPlanet. At last count, I've seen her reference it no less than 16 times. What's with these appeasement conservatives and their need to pretend that Ronald Reagan would have approved of their misguided, neo-isolationist message?

See my next two posts for the details.
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Old 02-15-2010, 08:13 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
We supported the mujahideen. They were much more than just the Taliban. The Taliban ultimately won control over Afghanistan not because we supported them over their rivals but because Pakistan did after we lost interest (which I'll remind you didn't have anything to do with Reagan).



The Taliban didn't attack us. Al Qaeda attacked us. The Taliban earned our enmity only because they refused to cooperate fully with us after 9/11. The Taliban was as uninterested in the world outside of Afghanistan (other than the tribal region of Pakistan where their fellow tribesmen lived) as we were in the world inside Afghanistan during the GHWBush and Clinton years.

Meanwhile, al Qaeda left Afghanistan and took up residence in Sudan where OBL came up with his ideas of jihad against the west to replace the obsolete idea of jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Much later, when Sudan kicked them out, they returned to Afghanistan where they were tolerated by the Taliban but didn't integrate with the Taliban.
Okay, starting off, wow, the amount of responses that can be put together during a game of madden. Anyways, I shall try to address your reasoning point by point.

First, you claim that because the Soviets withdrew in 1989 that any failure in Afghanistan should be pinned on HW Bush and Clinton. I would like to agree with you and extend the blame to papa bush and slick willy, but examining the first part of your statement we find that it is only partially true. The Soviet Union began withdrawing from Afghanistan in 1987 and the majority of their withdrawals came in the middle of 1988, during this time Reagan would have had ample opportunity to enact a plan to rebuild Afghanistan in the midst of this destruction, but instead he chose to leave it smoldering in desolation.

This was a misguided idea for a few reasons, firstly because most of the weapons he sent to Afghanistan went directly to Hekmatyar(sp?), a man who often spoke vehemently against the United States. It was not a secret that Hekmatyar was anti-American and leaving him the reigns of Afghanistan after our departure was definitely unwise. It is easy to see that In Reagan's ravenous appetite for Soviet destruction he did not ponder any potential consequences to his decisions encompassing Afghanistan.

You next state that Pakistan decided to throw support behind the Taliban long after we had lost interest, while again deflecting any blame from Reagan. Again, this is misguided, as the Taliban were formed directly from the Mujahadeen and most of the power was given to them by the weapons from the Reagan administration.

I would also like to point out that Reagan was not ignorant to the turmoil in Afghanistan, as many of his advisors warned him to many of the extremist groups vying for power as the Soviets began departing. Sadly, These warnings were largely ignored by the Reagan, Bush, and I suppose the Clinton administrations.

You next point out that Al Queda attacked this us, not the Taliban. This is true, but it is ignoring the role of the Taliban in the years leading up to the 9/11 attacks. During the 1990's, when Clinton went on a manhunt for Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban repeatedly denied the US's request to hand him over. One cannot ignore the Taliban's role in the 9/11 attacks.

In the end, whether you support Reagan/Bush or not, it is clear that they made a crucial oversight in their handling of Afghanistan. Their actions/lack there of not only aided the Taliban 's emergence, but could have also partially lead us to the conflict we're in today.

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Old 02-15-2010, 09:36 PM   #122
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That's a rather weak analogy, lynchings were inevitably going to occur from the hands of the ignorant bigot. However, if Reagan would not have left Afghanistan in shambles after the war perhaps we would be living in a different world today. Arming the mujahideen in the soviet-afghan war may have been short-sided, Perhaps not so much because we aided the "freedom fighters", but because we left Afghanistan in utter ruin after the soviet withdrawal. Reagan's failure to present any form of a plan for Afghanistan may have planted the roots of the conflict we are mired in today.
The Soviets left Afghanistan at about the time Reagan left the WH. If you're going to blame anyone for the lack of post-Soviet policy for Afghanistan, it's BushDaddy.
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Old 02-15-2010, 10:15 PM   #123
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Lol, it sure was! Seeing as Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Great Britain, and The Soviet Union all failed to take control of Afghanistan.
Alexander failed? Ha, I've never heard such words!! Alexander did take control of "Bactria" and all other areas that today's Afghanistan touches.
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:05 AM   #124
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Buckeye is great. So what patteeu.

Lebanon,Iraq. What's our national debt?
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:34 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by Chiefspants View Post
Okay, starting off, wow, the amount of responses that can be put together during a game of madden. Anyways, I shall try to address your reasoning point by point.

First, you claim that because the Soviets withdrew in 1989 that any failure in Afghanistan should be pinned on HW Bush and Clinton. I would like to agree with you and extend the blame to papa bush and slick willy, but examining the first part of your statement we find that it is only partially true. The Soviet Union began withdrawing from Afghanistan in 1987 and the majority of their withdrawals came in the middle of 1988, during this time Reagan would have had ample opportunity to enact a plan to rebuild Afghanistan in the midst of this destruction, but instead he chose to leave it smoldering in desolation.
You blame Reagan for not moving into Afghanistan for a rebuilding operation while the Soviets were still there?

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Originally Posted by Chiefspants View Post
This was a misguided idea for a few reasons, firstly because most of the weapons he sent to Afghanistan went directly to Hekmatyar(sp?), a man who often spoke vehemently against the United States. It was not a secret that Hekmatyar was anti-American and leaving him the reigns of Afghanistan after our departure was definitely unwise. It is easy to see that In Reagan's ravenous appetite for Soviet destruction he did not ponder any potential consequences to his decisions encompassing Afghanistan.
Not directly. Support flowed to Hekmatyar through Pakistan who vouched for him. Hekmatyar did not become Taliban or al Qaeda, although some of his troops left him to join Mullah Omar when the Pakistanis switched their support over to him (after US support ended).

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You next state that Pakistan decided to throw support behind the Taliban long after we had lost interest, while again deflecting any blame from Reagan. Again, this is misguided, as the Taliban were formed directly from the Mujahadeen and most of the power was given to them by the weapons from the Reagan administration.
There were many factions within the mujahideen and there were plenty of arms to go around. When the Pakistanis started backing Mullah Omar, he still had to fight his way through all the other warlords to take over the country. It's not like the mujahideen all became Taliban and then had a cake walk to Kabul. In fact, several of the Soviet-era warlords had been fighting over Kabul for 2 or 3 years before Omar emerged and attracted the Pakistani's attention. Omar was never a warlord during the era when Reagan's aid was flowing through Pakistan to the mujahideen.

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Originally Posted by Chiefspants View Post
I would also like to point out that Reagan was not ignorant to the turmoil in Afghanistan, as many of his advisors warned him to many of the extremist groups vying for power as the Soviets began departing. Sadly, These warnings were largely ignored by the Reagan, Bush, and I suppose the Clinton administrations.

You next point out that Al Queda attacked this us, not the Taliban. This is true, but it is ignoring the role of the Taliban in the years leading up to the 9/11 attacks. During the 1990's, when Clinton went on a manhunt for Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban repeatedly denied the US's request to hand him over. One cannot ignore the Taliban's role in the 9/11 attacks.

In the end, whether you support Reagan/Bush or not, it is clear that they made a crucial oversight in their handling of Afghanistan. Their actions/lack there of not only aided the Taliban 's emergence, but could have also partially lead us to the conflict we're in today.
You haven't convinced me that Reagan needs to apologize for any of his actions wrt Afghanistan. It's always easy to use hindsight to nitpick policies, but even in hindsight it's hard to criticize Reagan's actions there.
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:35 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by googlegoogle View Post
Buckeye is great. So what patteeu.

Lebanon,Iraq. What's our national debt?
English please?
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:40 PM   #127
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The Soviets left Afghanistan at about the time Reagan left the WH. If you're going to blame anyone for the lack of post-Soviet policy for Afghanistan, it's BushDaddy.
True and false.

If we went in (in this case, supplied the rebellion) without a plan for the aftermath, it lies on both the person initiating the invasion (supply) and the person following.

In the case of Iraq, GWB fit both bills and Obama can claim to a small part as well seeing as he's overseeing the actual withdrawal. In Afghanistan, Reagan doesn't get an exemption just because he left office....
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:54 PM   #128
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True and false.

If we went in (in this case, supplied the rebellion) without a plan for the aftermath, it lies on both the person initiating the invasion (supply) and the person following.

In the case of Iraq, GWB fit both bills and Obama can claim to a small part as well seeing as he's overseeing the actual withdrawal. In Afghanistan, Reagan doesn't get an exemption just because he left office....
The regrets Reagan should have over his Afghanistan policy for not having a plan to deal with a post-Soviet era are infinitesimal compared to the credit he should get for his policy's huge success there.

It's funny how the kids of today can have such a warped, revisionist view of such recent history.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:03 PM   #129
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The regrets Reagan should have over his Afghanistan policy for not having a plan to deal with a post-Soviet era are infinitesimal compared to the credit he should get for his policy's huge success there.

It's funny how the ideologues of old can have such a warped, revisionist view of such recent history.
FYP




In seriousness, in what way do you consider his policy a huge success? If you are still going to contest he brought down a superpower, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:21 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by irishjayhawk View Post
FYP




In seriousness, in what way do you consider his policy a huge success? If you are still going to contest he brought down a superpower, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
You can disagree on that point (because what would this place be without you clinging to wrong), but you can't disagree with the idea that Reagan's policies were instrumental in handing the Soviets a Vietnam-style defeat along with the attendant treasury drain, prestige loss, and morale damage.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:24 PM   #131
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You can disagree on that point (because what would this place be without you clinging to wrong), but you can't disagree with the idea that Reagan's policies were instrumental in handing the Soviets a Vietnam-style defeat along with the attendant treasury drain, prestige loss, and morale damage.
What policy(ies) would of his would you attribute this to?

From your perspective you have this great accomplishment and on the other you have Iran-Contra.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:35 PM   #132
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What policy(ies) would of his would you attribute this to?

From your perspective you have this great accomplishment and on the other you have Iran-Contra.
His policy of supporting the mujahideen's fight against the Soviets, of course.

I don't think Iran-Contra was such a bad thing. As usual, democrats were working against our national interests and effectively doing the bidding of a communist regime (some might say unintentionally) by trying to prevent us from aiding the Nicaraguan Contras.
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Old 02-16-2010, 01:40 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
His policy of supporting the mujahideen's fight against the Soviets, of course.

I don't think Iran-Contra was such a bad thing. As usual, democrats were working against our national interests and effectively doing the bidding of a communist regime (some might say unintentionally) by trying to prevent us from aiding the Nicaraguan Contras.
We've reached the point of agree to disagree. Each is going to claim the other is a revisionist historian.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:19 PM   #134
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Wow. Still a no show.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:49 PM   #135
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You can disagree on that point (because what would this place be without you clinging to wrong), but you can't disagree with the idea that Reagan's Carter's policies were instrumental in handing the Soviets a Vietnam-style defeat along with the attendant treasury drain, prestige loss, and morale damage.

The anti-communist rebels garnered support from the United States. As stated by the former director of the Central Intelligence Agency and current US Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, in his memoirs From the Shadows, the US intelligence services began to aid the rebel factions in Afghanistan six months before the Soviet deployment. On July 3, 1979, US President Jimmy Carter signed an executive order authorizing the CIA to conduct covert propaganda operations against the communist regime.

Carter advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski stated: "According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the mujahideen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, December 24, 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise." Brzezinski himself played a fundamental role in crafting US policy, which, unbeknownst even to the mujahideen, was part of a larger strategy "to induce a Soviet military intervention." In a 1998 interview with Le Nouvel Observateur, Brzezinski recalled: "We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would...That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap ... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War."[21]

Additionally, on July 3, 1979, Carter signed a presidential finding authorizing funding for anticommunist guerrillas in Afghanistan.[22] As a part of the Central Intelligence Agency program called Operation Cyclone, led by their elite Special Activities Division, which included the massive arming of Afghanistan's mujahideen.[23]


http://www.answers.com/topic/soviet-war-in-afghanistan

Reagan did follow-up well, though. Escalated, even.
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