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Old 01-09-2005, 09:50 AM  
MadProphetMargin MadProphetMargin is offline
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It just ain't America(tm) without death-squads!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6802629/site/newsweek/

‘The Salvador Option’
The Pentagon may put Special-Forces-led assassination or kidnapping teams in Iraq

By Michael Hirsh and John Barry
Newsweek
Updated: 10:22 a.m. ET Jan. 9, 2005


Jan. 8 - What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq? The Pentagon’s latest approach is being called "the Salvador option"—and the fact that it is being discussed at all is a measure of just how worried Donald Rumsfeld really is. "What everyone agrees is that we can’t just go on as we are," one senior military officer told NEWSWEEK. "We have to find a way to take the offensive against the insurgents. Right now, we are playing defense. And we are losing." Last November’s operation in Fallujah, most analysts agree, succeeded less in breaking "the back" of the insurgency—as Marine Gen. John Sattler optimistically declared at the time—than in spreading it out.

Now, NEWSWEEK has learned, the Pentagon is intensively debating an option that dates back to a still-secret strategy in the Reagan administration’s battle against the leftist guerrilla insurgency in El Salvador in the early 1980s. Then, faced with a losing war against Salvadoran rebels, the U.S. government funded or supported "nationalist" forces that allegedly included so-called death squads directed to hunt down and kill rebel leaders and sympathizers. Eventually the insurgency was quelled, and many U.S. conservatives consider the policy to have been a success—despite the deaths of innocent civilians and the subsequent Iran-Contra arms-for-hostages scandal. (Among the current administration officials who dealt with Central America back then is John Negroponte, who is today the U.S. ambassador to Iraq. Under Reagan, he was ambassador to Honduras.)

Following that model, one Pentagon proposal would send Special Forces teams to advise, support and possibly train Iraqi squads, most likely hand-picked Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers, even across the border into Syria, according to military insiders familiar with the discussions. It remains unclear, however, whether this would be a policy of assassination or so-called "snatch" operations, in which the targets are sent to secret facilities for interrogation. The current thinking is that while U.S. Special Forces would lead operations in, say, Syria, activities inside Iraq itself would be carried out by Iraqi paramilitaries, officials tell NEWSWEEK.

Also being debated is which agency within the U.S. government—the Defense department or CIA—would take responsibility for such an operation. Rumsfeld’s Pentagon has aggressively sought to build up its own intelligence-gathering and clandestine capability with an operation run by Defense Undersecretary Stephen Cambone. But since the Abu Ghraib interrogations scandal, some military officials are ultra-wary of any operations that could run afoul of the ethics codified in the Uniform Code of Military Justice. That, they argue, is the reason why such covert operations have always been run by the CIA and authorized by a special presidential finding. (In "covert" activity, U.S. personnel operate under cover and the U.S. government will not confirm that it instigated or ordered them into action if they are captured or killed.)

Meanwhile, intensive discussions are taking place inside the Senate Intelligence Committee over the Defense department’s efforts to expand the involvement of U.S. Special Forces personnel in intelligence-gathering missions. Historically, Special Forces’ intelligence gathering has been limited to objectives directly related to upcoming military operations—"preparation of the battlefield," in military lingo. But, according to intelligence and defense officials, some Pentagon civilians for years have sought to expand the use of Special Forces for other intelligence missions.

Pentagon civilians and some Special Forces personnel believe CIA civilian managers have traditionally been too conservative in planning and executing the kind of undercover missions that Special Forces soldiers believe they can effectively conduct. CIA traditionalists are believed to be adamantly opposed to ceding any authority to the Pentagon. Until now, Pentagon proposals for a capability to send soldiers out on intelligence missions without direct CIA approval or participation have been shot down. But counter-terrorist strike squads, even operating covertly, could be deemed to fall within the Defense department’s orbit.

The interim government of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi is said to be among the most forthright proponents of the Salvador option. Maj. Gen.Muhammad Abdallah al-Shahwani, director of Iraq’s National Intelligence Service, may have been laying the groundwork for the idea with a series of interviews during the past ten days. Shahwani told the London-based Arabic daily Al-Sharq al-Awsat that the insurgent leadership—he named three former senior figures in the Saddam regime, including Saddam Hussein’s half-brother—were essentially safe across the border in a Syrian sanctuary. "We are certain that they are in Syria and move easily between Syrian and Iraqi territories," he said, adding that efforts to extradite them "have not borne fruit so far."

Shahwani also said that the U.S. occupation has failed to crack the problem of broad support for the insurgency. The insurgents, he said, "are mostly in the Sunni areas where the population there, almost 200,000, is sympathetic to them." He said most Iraqi people do not actively support the insurgents or provide them with material or logistical help, but at the same time they won’t turn them in. One military source involved in the Pentagon debate agrees that this is the crux of the problem, and he suggests that new offensive operations are needed that would create a fear of aiding the insurgency. "The Sunni population is paying no price for the support it is giving to the terrorists," he said. "From their point of view, it is cost-free. We have to change that equation."

Pentagon sources emphasize there has been no decision yet to launch the Salvador option. Last week, Rumsfeld decided to send a retired four-star general, Gary Luck, to Iraq on an open-ended mission to review the entire military strategy there. But with the U.S. Army strained to the breaking point, military strategists note that a dramatic new approach might be needed—perhaps one as potentially explosive as the Salvador option.


With Mark Hosenball


© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.


Actually, this COULD work, but my prediction is that this will turn into a general slaughter of Sunnis by the Shi'ites, with American assistance.
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:31 PM   #106
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very nice amnorix.

there's hope for you yet...
I know most on the other side of the aisle equate liberal with wimp and p*ssy, but it really isn't true of most liberals.

I'm willing to wager I've read more military history than most on this board. War truly is hell. Although I haven't been through it, it's not really tough to understand that battlefield conditions, especially in a thorny situation like Iraq, don't lend themselves to ivory tower analysis.
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Old 01-12-2005, 02:35 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Cochise
I think any reasonable person would agree with that.

But what reasonable person thinks this is in practice?
The My Lai massacre is an example of what would be an unjustified atrocity.

What happened along sectors of the Eastern Front during WWII are unspeakable. First when the Russians and Germans rolled over the Poles. Then when the Germans rolled through the Ukraine and into Russia. Then when Russia rolled into Germany.

Many soldiers on both sides did things that were not justified by mere circumstance. And I'm talking about alot more than just rounding up "undesireables" and shipping them off to death camps.
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Old 01-12-2005, 05:57 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amnorix
I'm just saying that if you wipe out a village because you think ONE person in that village MIGHT be an insurgent, then you're probably crossing the line, and I wouldn't approve (not that my approval is required).

But there aren't any bright line tests or hard and fast rules. I certainly recognize that. It's easy to draw up guidelines from an office. Applying them to every situation encountered by our troops (and other supporters) in the field, where the rubber meets the road, is where things get messy quick.
Once again, you and I meet in the middle at 100% agreement with a new topic.
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Old 01-13-2005, 07:06 AM   #109
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death squads are awesome....we should torture and kill everyone, Bush is the right man for the job...he's honest and concerned with civil rights...
---------------------

On the Afternoon of 10 December 1981, units of the Atlacal Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalion (BIRI) arrived in the village of El Mozote, Department of Morazan, after a clash with the guerrillas in the vicinity . . .

Early next morning, 11 December, the soldiers reassembled the entire population in the square. They separated the men from the women and children and locked everyone up in different groups in the church, the convent and various houses.

During the morning, they proceeded to interrogate, torture and execute the men in various locations. Around noon, they began taking the women in groups, separating them from their children and machine-gunning them. Finally, they killed the children. A group of children who had been locked in the convent were machine-gunned through the windows. After exterminating the entire population, the soldiers set fire to the buildings.

UN Truth Commission on El Salvador
The El Mozote Massacre
April 1, 1993
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Old 01-13-2005, 05:09 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Talking Can
death squads are awesome....we should torture and kill everyone, Bush is the right man for the job...he's honest and concerned with civil rights...
---------------------

On the Afternoon of 10 December 1981, units of the Atlacal Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalion (BIRI) arrived in the village of El Mozote, Department of Morazan, after a clash with the guerrillas in the vicinity . . .

Early next morning, 11 December, the soldiers reassembled the entire population in the square. They separated the men from the women and children and locked everyone up in different groups in the church, the convent and various houses.

During the morning, they proceeded to interrogate, torture and execute the men in various locations. Around noon, they began taking the women in groups, separating them from their children and machine-gunning them. Finally, they killed the children. A group of children who had been locked in the convent were machine-gunned through the windows. After exterminating the entire population, the soldiers set fire to the buildings.

UN Truth Commission on El Salvador
The El Mozote Massacre
April 1, 1993
The El Mozote massacre was completed by El Salvador guerillas not trained by US soldiers. Using the actions of other nations as a guide for our own is simply not realistic.
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Old 01-13-2005, 07:33 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by KCWolfman
The El Mozote massacre was completed by El Salvador guerillas not trained by US soldiers.

Really? You can prove this?
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:09 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by MadProphetMargin
Really? You can prove this?
Do I have to? You simply can't read an article yourself?

Or are you playing conspiracy theorist and suggesting the bad men were trained by the US without any proof?
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:12 PM   #113
Raiderhader Raiderhader is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Talking Can
death squads are awesome....we should torture and kill everyone, Bush is the right man for the job...he's honest and concerned with civil rights...
---------------------

On the Afternoon of 10 December 1981, units of the Atlacal Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalion (BIRI) arrived in the village of El Mozote, Department of Morazan, after a clash with the guerrillas in the vicinity . . .

Early next morning, 11 December, the soldiers reassembled the entire population in the square. They separated the men from the women and children and locked everyone up in different groups in the church, the convent and various houses.

During the morning, they proceeded to interrogate, torture and execute the men in various locations. Around noon, they began taking the women in groups, separating them from their children and machine-gunning them. Finally, they killed the children. A group of children who had been locked in the convent were machine-gunned through the windows. After exterminating the entire population, the soldiers set fire to the buildings.

UN Truth Commission on El Salvador
The El Mozote Massacre
April 1, 1993

What does Bush have to do with the story you posted? This happened 23 years ago, Bush was not President at that time. But what the hell, let's loosely associate him with this story to try and put your own spin on what kind of man you think he is.

Sheesh, this is so penchiefesque.
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:20 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCWolfman
The El Mozote massacre was completed by El Salvador guerillas not trained by US soldiers. Using the actions of other nations as a guide for our own is simply not realistic.
"The Atlacatl Battalion was a "Rapid Deployment Infantry Battalion" or "BIRI", that is, a unit specially trained for "counter-insurgency" warfare. It was the first unit of its kind in the armed forces and had completed its training under the supervision of United States military advisors, at the beginning of that year, 1981."

"The weapons used to fire at the victims were M-16 rifles.

As the ballistics analyst described, "two hundred forty-five cartridge cases recovered from the El Mozote site were studied. Of these, 184 had discernable headstamps, identifying the ammunition as having been manufactured for the United States Government at Lake City, Missouri. ...All of the projectiles except one appear to have been fired from United States-manufactured M-16 rifles". ..."

UN Truth Commission Report

"But it wasn't their equipment that made them "the élite, American-trained Atlacatl Battalion" (as press accounts invariably identified them). It was their aggressiveness, their willingness to "do the job": a willingness that the rest of the badly led and badly trained Army generally lacked. In part, perhaps, this aggressiveness was instilled by American trainers -- Special Forces personnel, who, beginning in March, had been coming over from Southern Command, in Panama, to show the Salvadoran recruits how to shoot and how to seize positions......"

"Hoping to insure that at least one unit of the Salvadoran Army was adequately prepared to fight, the Americans sent Special Forces instructors in early 1981 to train the first recruits of the new Immediate Reaction Infantry Battalion (biri). Yet, as the American advisers well knew, the epithet of "élite, American-trained" that was hung on the Atlacatl by the press was a bit of a joke. "They had no specialized training," one of the original Special Forces trainers told me. "They had basic individualized training -- you know, basic shooting, marksmanship, squad tactics. I mean, the difference was that the Salvadorans basically had no trained units in the country, so this was going to be a unit that would be trained."

Some officials in the Embassy and the Pentagon had wanted the entire unit to be trained in the United States -- and, indeed, later in the year recruits for the second of the biris, the Belloso, would be flown en masse to Fort Bragg, North Carolina. But the Atlacatl had something the Belloso didn't: it had Monterrosa. "That the battalion wasn't sent to the United States but was trained by Monterrosa here was in large part a testament to his authority," a contemporary of Monterrosa's told me. "The High Command had been preparing him, grooming him. He had taken all the courses the Americans offered, including those for the paratroopers and the commandos. His ambition became very concrete around the time the Americans decided to direct a major counter-insurgency effort here. When the Atlacatl came along, he jumped at it."

link

etc....
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:21 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raiderhader
What does Bush have to do with the story you posted? This happened 23 years ago, Bush was not President at that time. But what the hell, let's loosely associate him with this story to try and put your own spin on what kind of man you think he is.

Sheesh, this is so penchiefesque.
you shouldn't be ashamed to have a GED....
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:26 PM   #116
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you shouldn't be ashamed to have a GED....

What? Don't want to answer the question? You'd rather try and point the light away from your partisan trick to my education. That is not saying much for your post.

What does Bush have to do with actions taken in El Salvador during the early eighties? Answer correctly, and I'll give you a cookie.
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Old 01-13-2005, 09:45 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCWolfman
Do I have to? You simply can't read an article yourself?

Or are you playing conspiracy theorist and suggesting the bad men were trained by the US without any proof?
side tidbit:
----------
actually KCW, the "school of the americas" is literally 400m down the
road from ranger regiment HQ @ ft. benning GA. seen it with my own
eyes. don't know if it's still there now, but was back in 1991...

side note:
---------
there's always more to the story as far as el salvador is concerned.
lots of different (foreign) intel agancies were pulling puppet strings.
not something you're likely going to read in any articles you can
google up...
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Old 01-15-2005, 12:05 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Michigan
That is one really poorly written article. The first line is "What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq?"

WTF is that?

That said, you'll lose this argument MPM as will Newsweek.

The American voter will cheer this.
Yep.
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Old 01-15-2005, 12:16 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Michigan
That is one really poorly written article. The first line is "What to do about the deepening quagmire of Iraq?"

WTF is that?

That said, you'll lose this argument MPM as will Newsweek.

The American voter will cheer this.
Notice:
the libbies simply bipassed this gem by MM....
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Old 01-15-2005, 12:20 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by KCWolfman
I just don't see a down side other than the occassional extremist screaming "We may kill the wrong guy"
"Headstrong, I take you on! Headstrong, I take on anyone!"

Nailed it, Russ.
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