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Old 11-14-2017, 01:24 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Alright, gun rights folks. You say the problem is mental health.

For years on this forum and pretty much anywhere I discuss gun control with 2nd amendment absolutists like many on this forum, I argue that we need gun control in various forms.

In addition to some of the more radical notions that "2nd amendment rights" are absolute, I also frequently hear that America actually has a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

This is an argument that many of you have aired.

So, I am asking for what policies you want to be seen to deal with mental illness.

Here we have a kid losing his shit on social media, and by all accounts is probably at-risk for doing something horrendous at some point (NSFW):



Feel free to ignore the text that frames the video by Occupy Democrats, as it's worthless. Focus on my question.

Now, obviously losing your shit in front of a camera does not mean you will shoot up a crowd of people, but I think if we're all putting together a profile of someone who could eventually do that, he fits the profile. (Also, imagine if this guy were black or Muslim.)

What is it, exactly, that the gun enthusiasts in this forum who believe America's problem is mental health, suggest that we do with this individual?

C'mon, folks. You told me the problem is mental health policy. Explain to me how you fix it to address people who fly off the handle and say crazy, violent shit like this.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:55 PM   #31
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
Your first and second "suggestions" are Constitutional problems, not liberal/conservative issues. Your third issue is a socialism/capitalism issue (it's also a Constitutional issue, but the USSC court screwed the pooch on that one), not a liberal/conservative issue.

This is a great demonstration of why your threads are always idiotic. You post silly shit, try to use it to argue irrelevant points, and then do a piss poor job of even maintaining an argument that's not insane.
Do you believe that America has a mental health problem, and that's what's driving the gun violence and mass shootings that we have in society?
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:55 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Agreed, that is a worthwhile starting point. That's reasonable policy.

...doesn't really do anything to address his mental health, though.

Now, maybe you're not one of the folks I described in the OP, who believe the root of America's gun violence is mental illness and not guns. If you are, then your proposed solution doesn't really fulfill your call for America to "do something" about mental illness.

If you're not, however, then like I said that idea is reasonable and you can disregard my other commentary.
Quote:
So, I am asking for what policies you want to be seen to deal with mental illness.
So that's the question I'm responding to. I want the amount of damage that can be caused by it to be significantly diminished. Now - surely you aren't seriously asking for 'cures' to mental illness as a general concept, are you?

[remembers the source]

Oh...yeah, you probably are. Another one of those questions that aren't that you're so fond of.

Nevermind; thought there might be room for discussion here but I forgot that this is Direkshun we're dealing with. Carry on with your deer in the woods routine; you have your patter down pretty well these days.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:57 PM   #33
Hammock Parties Hammock Parties is offline
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That’s a parenting problem.

Has nothing to do with gun control.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:59 PM   #34
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Do you believe that America has a mental health problem, and that's what's driving the gun violence and mass shootings that we have in society?
Your question (my belief) is not relevant to my post. Your dishonesty, and shitty posting, is relevant to my post. Let's address those issues.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:59 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I actually think America handles mental health fairly well, so I don't think there are a ton of things we can do differently there, other than make it more affordable -- which would require redistribution, which of course the gun rights absolutists among us would rather die than support.
It's really hard to take you seriously when you make claims like that.

Quote:
  • An estimated 26% of homeless adults staying in shelters live with serious mental illness and an estimated 46% live with severe mental illness and/or substance use disorders.
  • Approximately 20% of state prisoners and 21% of local jail prisoners have “a recent history” of a mental health condition.
  • 70% of youth in juvenile justice systems have at least one mental health condition and at least 20% live with a serious mental illness.
  • Only 41% of adults in the U.S. with a mental health condition received mental health services in the past year. Among adults with a serious mental illness, 62.9% received mental health services in the past year.
  • Just over half (50.6%) of children aged 8-15 received mental health services in the previous year.
  • Serious mental illness costs America $193.2 billion in lost earnings per year.

https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Ment...By-the-Numbers
Here's a good article from the liberal Atlantic, on how to fix a "Broken" mental health system in the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...docket/485996/

Here's one from the conservative Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...tally-ill.html

Addressing mental health is hardly a partisan issue.

Many more links: https://www.google.com/search?q=fixi...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:59 PM   #36
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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That kid is a moron. He and those responsible for his upbringing should be dropped from a helicopter. We'll do the same for all of the shithead "youth" committing violent crimes with weapons.

That said, anyone who thinks the old, pump shotgun the kid is holding is an assault rifle should also be dropped from that helicopter at the same altitude.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:00 PM   #37
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
So that's the question I'm responding to. Now - surely you aren't seriously asking for 'cures' to mental illness as a general concept, are you?
Dealing with mental illness isn't the same as "curing" it. There are forms of "cures" for mental illness, but what the goal of mental healthcare is, of course, is to help a person manage their psychological hangups in healthy and productive ways, rather than in unhealthy and destructive ways.

In the worst cases, pairing destructive psychological issues with guns is a recipe for disaster, as we've seen.

Again, I think the policy you support is a really solid idea, though I haven't seen it before. But it doesn't make the person any psychologically healthier, it just restricts his access to guns.

Which is understandable, and sensible.

My OP is specifically attuned to gun rights activists on this forum who believe that every time someone like myself (and, I guess, you) call for gun control, they're missing the real problem -- "the problem isn't guns, it's mental illness, so let's deal with that instead."

Doesn't sound like you're one of those folks, though.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:01 PM   #38
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock Parties View Post
That’s a parenting problem.

Has nothing to do with gun control.
It's potentially a mental health problem paired with guns. Which becomes our problem if that pairing takes a turn for the worse.

Do you believe that we have a mental health problem and that it's driving our gun violence and mass shooting rates?
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:02 PM   #39
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
Your question (my belief) is not relevant to my post.
Well, then I guess your post isn't relevant to my thread. So we're even?
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:03 PM   #40
Iowanian Iowanian is offline
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Ironically, I haven't seen "white gun owners" defending this kid. The only things I've seen is liberals trying to pretend it actually happens.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post

My OP is specifically attuned to gun rights activists on this forum who believe that every time someone like myself (and, I guess, you) call for gun control, they're missing the real problem -- "the problem isn't guns, it's mental illness, so let's deal with that instead."
Let's deal with both. It doesn't have to be either or.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:04 PM   #42
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish View Post
It's really hard to take you seriously when you make claims like that.

Here's a good article from the liberal Atlantic, on how to fix a "Broken" mental health system in the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...docket/485996/

Here's one from the conservative Fox: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...tally-ill.html

Addressing mental health is hardly a partisan issue.

Many more links: https://www.google.com/search?q=fixi...hrome&ie=UTF-8
Right, our mental health system in America is hardly a well oiled machine. There are serious and real problems with it that I fully endorse us dealing with.

Compared to how other western nations handle mental health, however, we're about par for the course, if not better.

But I digress.

Which of those solutions in those two links you provided are you actually endorsing? Because that's the question I asked in the OP that you've yet to answer.

Linking to proposed solutions is one thing. Which ones are you endorsing?
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:05 PM   #43
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:05 PM   #44
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iowanian View Post
That kid is a moron. He and those responsible for his upbringing should be dropped from a helicopter. We'll do the same for all of the shithead "youth" committing violent crimes with weapons.

That said, anyone who thinks the old, pump shotgun the kid is holding is an assault rifle should also be dropped from that helicopter at the same altitude.
While this probably makes you feel better, the American government is not going to exterminate people who use violent rhetoric.

So, we have to deal with them.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:06 PM   #45
Direckshun Direckshun is offline
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
Let's deal with both. It doesn't have to be either or.
Completely agree.
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