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Old 11-14-2017, 01:24 PM  
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Alright, gun rights folks. You say the problem is mental health.

For years on this forum and pretty much anywhere I discuss gun control with 2nd amendment absolutists like many on this forum, I argue that we need gun control in various forms.

In addition to some of the more radical notions that "2nd amendment rights" are absolute, I also frequently hear that America actually has a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

This is an argument that many of you have aired.

So, I am asking for what policies you want to be seen to deal with mental illness.

Here we have a kid losing his shit on social media, and by all accounts is probably at-risk for doing something horrendous at some point (NSFW):



Feel free to ignore the text that frames the video by Occupy Democrats, as it's worthless. Focus on my question.

Now, obviously losing your shit in front of a camera does not mean you will shoot up a crowd of people, but I think if we're all putting together a profile of someone who could eventually do that, he fits the profile. (Also, imagine if this guy were black or Muslim.)

What is it, exactly, that the gun enthusiasts in this forum who believe America's problem is mental health, suggest that we do with this individual?

C'mon, folks. You told me the problem is mental health policy. Explain to me how you fix it to address people who fly off the handle and say crazy, violent shit like this.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:50 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
Basically a kid -- I'm going to guess 13 or 14, screaming the n-word into the camera, saying if "you come near me" you'll get shot, axed, or stabbed. He points a gun right at the camera and keeps screaming and shouting about how he's going to lay you to waste.
The last article I read said that 94 percent of the population supports universal background checks. Not sure why this is such a big issue.

I think a video like this ought to go into some kind of data base that is part of the background check.

I think there should be some sort of appeal process if a gun purchase is denied.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:51 PM   #17
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That video perfectly illustrates what bad parenting looks like.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinerDoug View Post
The last article I read said that 94 percent of the population supports universal background checks. Not sure why this is such a big issue.

I think a video like this ought to go into some kind of data base that is part of the background check.

I think there should be some sort of appeal process if a gun purchase is denied.
That is a completely fair policy, I'd say.

Though, I should mention, that doesn't really help his mental health at all.

I don't know if you're one of the folks I'm describing in the OP. But if you are, yeah, there's a big mental health hole in your policy suggestion.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:54 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinerDoug View Post
The last article I read said that 94 percent of the population supports universal background checks. Not sure why this is such a big issue.
The big issue is simple.

Will universal background checks lead to more or less gun sales?

Since the answer is less gun sales, the NRA -who only care about increasing gun sales - will always be against it.
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Old 11-14-2017, 01:59 PM   #20
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Direkshun with another dumb ass thread?


Say it ain't so!
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
That is a completely fair policy, I'd say.

Though, I should mention, that doesn't really help his mental health at all.

I don't know if you're one of the folks I'm describing in the OP. But if you are, yeah, there's a big mental health hole in your policy suggestion.
I'm not. I'm on the opposite side of the issue. However, I recognize that, with two cases in the last decade, the USSC has made effective gun control very difficult.

I believe that background checks would pass muster.

In terms of a policy aimed at curing mental health issues, I really don't have the background to make substantive suggestions. My guess is that it's probably not possible to make such a dent in the mental health status of this nation that it would effect gun violence.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I'm trying to get specific policy suggestions from the pro gun rights folks, like perhaps yourself, who argue that mental health is the problem, not a lack of gun control.

So you're saying that the government should be able to survey social media, and when violent, vicious rhetoric is broadcast by one of these individuals, it should be reported to the government so that this individual should be banned from purchasing or possessing firearms?

I should note, by the way, that this doesn't really help his mental health. It just takes his guns.

If I'm misunderstanding your policy suggestion, please let me know.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I don't want the government taking away someone's rights because they said something crazy on social media. I'd prefer something like this to be reasoning for getting mental health treatment. You're the one trying to use it as an excuse to take someone's rights away. Which you even note that it wouldn't really help his mental health.

Why shouldn't a video like this actually be a cry for mental health action? Instead, the title is calling out gun rights folks. If you want it to be about mental health, you might start actually addressing this is a mental health issue instead of attempt #485,878,283 to take people's guns away.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
The big issue is simple.

Will universal background checks lead to more or less gun sales?

Since the answer is less gun sales, the NRA -who only care about increasing gun sales - will always be against it.
You mean the federal law we ALREADY ****ING HAVE that requires a background check?
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:39 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinerDoug View Post
The last article I read said that 94 percent of the population supports universal background checks. Not sure why this is such a big issue.

I think a video like this ought to go into some kind of data base that is part of the background check.

I think there should be some sort of appeal process if a gun purchase is denied.
"universal background checks" are a red herring.

The NICS system has processed over 200 million firearm purchases since it's inception and over 1 million have been declined over the last 15 or so years.

So over 65,000 times/yr our present system has rejected an application for gun ownership. It should've caught the Texas shooter but/for piss poor reporting by the Government. Background checks AREN'T the damn problem here.

But the statement is as easy to make as "common sense gun laws" so people continue to make it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
I don't know if you're one of the folks I'm describing in the OP. But if you are, yeah, there's a big mental health hole in your policy suggestion.
I wish I could find the exact language of the laws and/or the states that have passed them, but there are several states that have passed laws allowing family members a 'fast track' access to the courts to petition to have gun access removed/restricted for a person that has demonstrated dangerous tendencies.

I actually can't see an issue there. If the people closest to you believe you are a danger to yourself and others, they should have an avenue to at least a hearing whereby an independent arbiter decides whether you should have a weapon. It's a worthwhile starting point.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
For years on this forum and pretty much anywhere I discuss gun control with 2nd amendment absolutists like many on this forum, I argue that we need gun control in various forms.

In addition to some of the more radical notions that "2nd amendment rights" are absolute, I also frequently hear that America actually has a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

This is an argument that many of you have aired.

So, I am asking for what policies you want to be seen to deal with mental illness.

Here we have a kid losing his shit on social media, and by all accounts is probably at-risk for doing something horrendous at some point (NSFW):



Feel free to ignore the text that frames the video by Occupy Democrats, as it's worthless. Focus on my question.

Now, obviously losing your shit in front of a camera does not mean you will shoot up a crowd of people, but I think if we're all putting together a profile of someone who could eventually do that, he fits the profile. (Also, imagine if this guy were black or Muslim.)

What is it, exactly, that the gun enthusiasts in this forum who believe America's problem is mental health, suggest that we do with this individual?

C'mon, folks. You told me the problem is mental health policy. Explain to me how you fix it to address people who fly off the handle and say crazy, violent shit like this.
There's an easy solution.

We can remove Rachel Maddow, Keith Olbermann, Samantha Bee ect from the airwaves.

We can treat ethnic studies, women's studies, sociology, and any other humanities discipline that is dominated by post-modernist professors like campuses treat Ben Shapiro and Milo Yiannopolous.

We can fire any mainstream media person that treats conservatives like they're stupid. Companies can fire any employee that doesn't toe conservative social values on their personal social media.

BAM. Mental health of the United States is restored!

(Yes, I'm trolling you Direckshun, because the whole underlying premise of your thread is trolling right wingers).

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Old 11-14-2017, 02:40 PM   #26
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You mean the federal law we ALREADY ****ING HAVE that requires a background check?
Seriously, I filled out a form that was immediately sent to the government and came back approved before I was allowed to complete the purchase of Every. Single. ****ing. Gun. I've ever purchased. Number of people murdered with said guns? Zero. So what the hell does this have to do with me?

****ing whining liberal twats. There's going to be a certain amount of batshit crazy people out there who do batshit crazy things. Welcome to earth. But none of them have dick to do with my constitutional rights.

Perhaps the jerkoff in the video will wig out and run down a bunch of people with a combine. Then Deflectshun can start a thread about banning farm equipment.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Fish View Post
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I don't want the government taking away someone's rights because they said something crazy on social media. I'd prefer something like this to be reasoning for getting mental health treatment. You're the one trying to use it as an excuse to take someone's rights away. Which you even note that it wouldn't really help his mental health.

Why shouldn't a video like this actually be a cry for mental health action? Instead, the title is calling out gun rights folks. If you want it to be about mental health, you might start actually addressing this is a mental health issue instead of attempt #485,878,283 to take people's guns away.
I actually think America handles mental health fairly well, so I don't think there are a ton of things we can do differently there, other than make it more affordable -- which would require redistribution, which of course the gun rights absolutists among us would rather die than support.

So that really does bring us to that central quandry that nobody ever mentions: many gun rights supporters try to deflect from the deadliness of guns by saying America inadequately deals with mental illness, but to my knowledge they have made zero efforts to do anything about that (the GOP-led Congress hasn't done a thing), and I don't even think they have any ideas as to how to do that. Shouting "it's mental health!" without a solution is a distraction, not a real answer.

And this video is the perfect example -- if there is a poster child for someone who could go on and shoot at a crowd, it's this kid. But the conservatives who believe guns rights are sacrosanct have literally no suggestions as to what can be done about him. Force him to seek therapy? Incarcerate him until we're comfortable putting him back in society? Publicly subsidize his mental healthcare if his family can't afford it?

All of those ideas are roundly opposed by the gun rights movement, which means we're right back to where we are at the start. They wag their fingers at him and hope it'll change, meanwhile his community has to lurch on tiptoes knowing that this violent basketcase is wandering through their society, freely armed as he sees fit.

I don't think mental health is a real answer, because I never see suggestions of any kind from the folks who claim it is the real answer.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:49 PM   #28
Direckshun Direckshun is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
I wish I could find the exact language of the laws and/or the states that have passed them, but there are several states that have passed laws allowing family members a 'fast track' access to the courts to petition to have gun access removed/restricted for a person that has demonstrated dangerous tendencies.

I actually can't see an issue there. If the people closest to you believe you are a danger to yourself and others, they should have an avenue to at least a hearing whereby an independent arbiter decides whether you should have a weapon. It's a worthwhile starting point.
Agreed, that is a worthwhile starting point. That's reasonable policy.

...doesn't really do anything to address his mental health, though.

Now, maybe you're not one of the folks I described in the OP, who believe the root of America's gun violence is mental illness and not guns. If you are, then your proposed solution doesn't really fulfill your call for America to "do something" about mental illness.

If you're not, however, then like I said that idea is reasonable and you can disregard my other commentary.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:53 PM   #29
Just Passin' By Just Passin' By is offline
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Originally Posted by Direckshun View Post
But the conservatives who believe guns rights are sacrosanct have literally no suggestions as to what can be done about him. Force him to seek therapy? Incarcerate him until we're comfortable putting him back in society? Publicly subsidize his mental healthcare if his family can't afford it?
Your first and second "suggestions" are Constitutional problems, not liberal/conservative issues. Your third issue is a socialism/capitalism issue (it's also a Constitutional issue, but the USSC court screwed the pooch on that one), not a liberal/conservative issue.

This is a great demonstration of why your threads are always idiotic. You post silly shit, try to use it to argue irrelevant points, and then do a piss poor job of even maintaining an argument that's not insane.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:54 PM   #30
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We have both gun and mental health issues. Solve the easiest one - the one that can do the most harm. No one needs a military style weapon for home defense or hunting.
There you go again...channeling that libtard Ronald Reagan again.
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