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Old 09-24-2019, 03:30 PM  
RodeoPants2 RodeoPants2 is offline
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Pelosi to open impeachment inquiry



It's go time.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:22 PM   #7486
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
I've bolded the part where you clearly don't agree with Kennedy. Kennedy is asking for proof that the president had a "culpable state of mind", whereas you are asking for proof that he did not.
Flip side of the same coin, really. But sure, we can go with what you stated.

However, this has already been demonstrated, as I stated:

"If it can be demonstrated that the president asked for and had the requisite state of mind, that the president asked for an investigation of a political rival, that's over the line," he said.

If by "requisite state of mind," Kennedy means that Trump asked for Zelensky to look into the Bidens ONLY because Biden is a political rival, that has yet to be 100% determined.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:26 PM   #7487
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Flip side of the same coin, really. But sure, we can go with what you stated.

However, this has already been demonstrated, as I stated:

"If it can be demonstrated that the president asked for and had the requisite state of mind, that the president asked for an investigation of a political rival, that's over the line," he said.

If by "requisite state of mind," Kennedy means that Trump asked for Zelensky to look into the Bidens ONLY because Biden is a political rival, that has yet to be 100% determined.
Okay, maybe we do agree. If Trump asked for Zelensky to look into the Bidens ONLY because Biden is a political rival, that would be an impeachable offense in my opinion.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:28 PM   #7488
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Okay, maybe we do agree. If Trump asked for Zelensky to look into the Bidens ONLY because Biden is a political rival, that would be an impeachable offense in my opinion.
Do you support the impeachment inquiry and hope that that is ascertained by it?
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:47 PM   #7489
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-i...ce-the-nation/

Asked if any testimony would lead him to cast a vote in favor of removing Mr. Trump from office — a constitutional task for the Republican-controlled Senate — Kennedy said he would need to see and hear concrete evidence that demonstrates the president espoused a "culpable state of mind" and directly sought an investigation into a political opponent.

If Mr. Trump sought an anti-corruption probe that involved "someone who happens to be a political rival," that would not be impeachable, Kennedy added, but rather in the "national interest."

"If it can be demonstrated that the president asked for and had the requisite state of mind, that the president asked for an investigation of a political rival, that's over the line," he said.

Pressed if his "over the line" standard would constitute an impeachable offense, Kennedy replied, "Yeah, probably."
I don't believe that at all. Kennedy will be a "no" vote no matter what happens.
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Old 11-11-2019, 05:48 PM   #7490
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Originally Posted by MagicHef View Post
Okay, maybe we do agree. If Trump asked for Zelensky to look into the Bidens ONLY because Biden is a political rival, that would be an impeachable offense in my opinion.
What kind of evidence would you need to feel confident reaching that conclusion? Obviously we'll never be able to truly know what's in trump's heart of hearts.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:06 PM   #7491
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Originally Posted by stumppy View Post
I don't believe that at all. Kennedy will be a "no" vote no matter what happens.
He’ll be a no vote because the proof of wrongdoing he requires won’t be established.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:15 PM   #7492
RodeoPants2 RodeoPants2 is offline
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i think you mean he'll be a no vote because he's set forth a standard of proof that is impossible to actually establish
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:15 PM   #7493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
He’ll be a no vote because the proof of wrongdoing he requires won’t be established.
I think that's most likely to happen. I doubt Trump is stupid enough to have any record of him saying, "I want to withhold aid to Ukraine because I want them to investigate Biden only to damage him."

Even if he did, you wouldn't support his impeachment and removal.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:23 PM   #7494
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I think that's most likely to happen. I doubt Trump is stupid enough to have any record of him saying, "I want to withhold aid to Ukraine because I want them to investigate Biden only to damage him."

Even if he did, you wouldn't support his impeachment and removal.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:31 PM   #7495
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You're having a bad day. I suggest you step away.
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Old 11-11-2019, 06:37 PM   #7496
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I have been saying for weeks that quid pro quo was not the issue.

Instead of Trump's state of mind, my analysis said the issue should turn on whether or not there were facts supporting a reasonable belief that Joe Biden was involved in corrupt dealings in Ukraine.

Quid pro quo is how international politics is done. It's business as usual. That's not extortion if the thing you're asking for is a legitimate matter for public concern. What is actually in Trump's heart doesn't matter. We shouldn't ask for our politicians to be saints. If, deep down inside, the President just wants to get reelected and hurt a political rival, but that political rival gets involved in corruption in a foreign country, the law should support such an inquiry b/c it benefits the public.

Under this standard, there are 2 ways Trump gets impeached and removed. Either you show that Trump had so much information that indicated Biden wasn't participating in corruption that it's impossible to say that there was enough objective facts to think an inquiry was reasonable. The other way is if Trump asked the Ukrainians to fabricate evidence against Biden, either in direct communication or through some back channel.

Showing Biden is in fact innocent of corruption isn't enough to remove Trump, IF Trump had knowledge of enough facts that a reasonable person could believe Biden was involved in corruption at the time of the phone call. He doesn't need slam dunk evidence that Biden was corrupt, just facts that lead to reasonable belief that it COULD be true because that's why you investigate.

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Old 11-11-2019, 07:01 PM   #7497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Donger View Post
I think that's most likely to happen. I doubt Trump is stupid enough to have any record of him saying, "I want to withhold aid to Ukraine because I want them to investigate Biden only to damage him."

Even if he did, you wouldn't support his impeachment and removal.
Disagree. I think Trump is, in fact, that stupid.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:03 PM   #7498
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It baffles me when seemingly intelligent people take this thing seriously.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:04 PM   #7499
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Originally Posted by RodeoPants2 View Post
What kind of evidence would you need to feel confident reaching that conclusion? Obviously we'll never be able to truly know what's in trump's heart of hearts.
If evidence came out that showed Trump truly did not believe (prior to the call) there was any corruption involving the Bidens, I would feel confident reaching that solution. However, I currently believe that Trump honestly thought there was corruption occurring with the Bidens.
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Old 11-11-2019, 07:12 PM   #7500
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Disagree. I think Trump is, in fact, that stupid.


It would be funny if that exists, but I doubt it. Middling intelligence.
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