Game of Thrones *Spoiler* Thread

[keg in kc]

There's been some recent confusion with the old spoiler thread, so I'm kicking off a new one for tonight's premiere. This is going to be the one for folks who've read all the books. So anything anybody might want to talk about is in bounds. Suffice to say, if you haven't read the books, you'll probably want to stay out of here until you do...

I'll bump the old spoiler-free thread shortly in case anybody's interested. For future reference the link to that one is here

[Pepe Silvia]

Dany's lines have just been killing me lately, I cringe every time she speaks. Emilia Clarke needs to hush and get naked.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

So, for that instance of trying to kill Tyrion, do you absolve her of guilt the way you do for Catelyn?

We know the Freys are guilty, and we know Tyrion is not, so...NO.

Cersei doesn't care about justice or even vengeance, she wants Tyrion dead because of the prophecy that she will be killed by her little brother. She obviously assumes that means Tyrion, though I'm not so sure she's right. That's why she went to great lengths to fix the trial. She wanted to be sure Tyrion would lose and die. She had no interest in knowing the truth of what happened.

So even that situation is not comparable to Catelyn who is at least seeking justice/revenge for a wrongful act by the Frey clan, and she doesn't really need trials given that she was a firsthand witness to the crime.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by PackerinMo

Dany's lines have just been killing me lately, I cringe every time she speaks. Emilia Clarke needs to hush and get naked.

I'm on board with more naked Dany. I would love for them to give us the lesbian scene from the books.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Hawk

We know the Freys are guilty, and we know Tyrion is not, so...NO.

Cersei doesn't care about justice or even vengeance, she wants Tyrion dead because of the prophecy that she will be killed by her little brother. She obviously assumes that means Tyrion, though I'm not so sure she's right. That's why she went to great lengths to fix the trial. She wanted to be sure Tyrion would lose and die. She had no interest in knowing the truth of what happened.

So even that situation is not comparable to Catelyn who is at least seeking justice/revenge for a wrongful act by the Frey clan, and she doesn't really need trials given that she was a firsthand witness to the crime.

According to the trial, Tyrion is guilty.

[MagicHef]

Ok, we've obviously beaten that topic to death, on to something new.

Does anyone else see a connection between the old gods and R'hllor?

[NewChief]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

Ok, we've obviously beaten that topic to death, on to something new.

Does anyone else see a connection between the old gods and R'hllor?

Since you're into making contrarian cases, why don't you make a case that the god of ice/darkness is actually a better god than R'hllor. R'hllor seems like a real mother****er to me.


We haven't really seen the White Walkers do anything except make zombies (why's that such a bad thing?) and kill a few people who were actually trying to kill them. R'hllor, on the other hand, seems to actively encourage human sacrifice.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by NewChief

Since you're into making contrarian cases, why don't you make a case that the god of ice/darkness is actually a better god than R'hllor. R'hllor seems like a real mother****er to me.


We haven't really seen the White Walkers do anything except make zombies (why's that such a bad thing?) and kill a few people who were actually trying to kill them. R'hllor, on the other hand, seems to actively encourage human sacrifice.

I read a rather interesting theory where Azor Ahai was not a warrior, but a diplomat. The Wall was supposed to be the demarcation between their territory and mankind's, and the Night King married an other to make a marriage pact. Now wildlings have been violating the pact, so the others have been responding in kind. The end of the series will be another pact between men and others.

There's really nothing in the books that shows the others to be evil. As you say though, R'hllor and the old gods both require human sacrifice. It doesn't seem to be a difficult argument to make that R'hllor (or whatever is behind/pretending to be R'hllor) is the big bad guy.

[MagicHef]

On the subject of Azor Ahai, Does it strike anyone else as odd that it is a story from Asshai, but his enemy, the others, are strictly in Westeros?

In fact, does anyone other than Melisandre even talk about Azor Ahai?

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

On the subject of Azor Ahai, Does it strike anyone else as odd that it is a story from Asshai, but his enemy, the others, are strictly in Westeros?

In fact, does anyone other than Melisandre even talk about Azor Ahai?

Maester Aemon does, he knows the prophecy when Mel brings it up at the Wall. Rhaegar seems to have known as well.

I am curious about whether Bran and Bloodraven are the good guys or the bad guys, and what that even means. In Mel's POV chapter, she seems to see them as her enemy which is curious as I had been assuming they would work together to defeat the Others.

The white walkers have attacked and killed a bunch of NW at the Fist of First Men, and they have done enough to scare a disparate groups of wildlings into joining together under Mance to escape them. Now maybe there was some pact being violated as mentioned, but if not, they don't seem to be too friendly to people in general.

[Hawk]

Here's another question. We have seen that R'hllor has real power to affect human events and even raise the dead. We have see that the old gods/weirwood trees have real power as well to manipulate events through Bran and Bloodraven. But the Seven have not made any appearance or shown themselves to be impacting human events at all. Why is that, and will they make an appearance at some point?

[Swanman]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Here's another question. We have seen that R'hllor has real power to affect human events and even raise the dead. We have see that the old gods/weirwood trees have real power as well to manipulate events through Bran and Bloodraven. But the Seven have not made any appearance or shown themselves to be impacting human events at all. Why is that, and will they make an appearance at some point?

You could argue that The Stranger is acting through the Faceless Men.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Maester Aemon does, he knows the prophecy when Mel brings it up at the Wall. Rhaegar seems to have known as well.

I am curious about whether Bran and Bloodraven are the good guys or the bad guys, and what that even means. In Mel's POV chapter, she seems to see them as her enemy which is curious as I had been assuming they would work together to defeat the Others.

The white walkers have attacked and killed a bunch of NW at the Fist of First Men, and they have done enough to scare a disparate groups of wildlings into joining together under Mance to escape them. Now maybe there was some pact being violated as mentioned, but if not, they don't seem to be too friendly to people in general.

I thought Aemon and Rheagar spoke of the Prince(ss) that was Promised. That may not be the same as Azor Ahai. A lot of the prophesies/history are only mentioned in reference to AA.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Here's another question. We have seen that R'hllor has real power to affect human events and even raise the dead. We have see that the old gods/weirwood trees have real power as well to manipulate events through Bran and Bloodraven. But the Seven have not made any appearance or shown themselves to be impacting human events at all. Why is that, and will they make an appearance at some point?

I'm starting to wonder that all the religions/gods are fake, and one of the groups we've already met are using them to control people.

[Hawk]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

I thought Aemon and Rheagar spoke of the Prince(ss) that was Promised. That may not be the same as Azor Ahai. A lot of the prophesies/history are only mentioned in reference to AA.

This short essay pulls together all the references. I had forgotten that it is Sallador Sahn who tells Davos the story of Azor Ahai, not Mel, so I guess he knows about it. Also interesting that Mel seems to think the PtwP is the same as Azor Ahai. Anyway, hopefully we will get some more color on it.

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chr...ai_reborn.html

This essay was written before ADWD, so it does not deal with the fact that Mel sees "Snow" with a capital S in her flames when she asks to be shown AA, and it does not deal with the theory that Jon is AA based on him somehow being reborn after being stabbed at the end of ADWD with the salt being the tears of his brothers as they stab him, the smoke being the smoking wounds (odd way to describe them, you would think they would be called steaming rather than smoking), and the bloody star sigil of the guy the giant crushes right before Jon is stabbed would be the bleeding star reference. But Jon has not woken dragons from stone, so...not sure he fits either. Maybe Dany is AA and Jon is the PtwP and they have to work together to defeat the Others? I hope book 6 starts to give us some answers to these questions.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Hawk

Cersei doesn't care about justice or even vengeance, she wants Tyrion dead because of the prophecy that she will be killed by her little brother. She obviously assumes that means Tyrion, though I'm not so sure she's right.\

Which is one of the reasons for a leading theory where this all ends up is that Jon Snow kills her while taking Kings Landing.