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Old 05-04-2018, 11:28 AM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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Mueller slammed by Judge in Manfort Case

U.S. judge questions special counsel's powers in Manafort case

ALEXANDRIA, Va. (Reuters) - A federal judge on Friday sharply criticized Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s criminal case in Virginia against President Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, and openly questioned whether Mueller exceeded his prosecutorial powers by bringing it.

“I don’t see what relationship this indictment has with anything the special counsel is authorized to investigate,” U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III in the Eastern District of Virginia said.

At a tense hearing at the federal courthouse in Alexandria, Virginia, the judge said Mueller should not have “unfettered power” in his Russia probe and that the charges against Manafort did not arise from the investigation into Moscow’s alleged meddling in the 2016 U.S. election.

“It’s unlikely you’re going to persuade me the special counsel has unfettered power to do whatever he wants,” said Ellis, who was appointed to the bench by Republican President Ronald Reagan.

Manafort is facing charges in both Virginia and Washington. The Virginia case charges him with offenses including tax and bank fraud.

The other case in Washington accuses him of conspiring to launder money and failing to register as a foreign agent when he lobbied for the pro-Russia Ukrainian government.

None of the charges relate, however, to Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign or possible collusion with Russia. Trump has denied any collusion.

Manafort’s attorney Kevin Downing has argued that the charges must dismissed because the FBI investigation dates back to 2014, and therefore did not arise from Mueller’s probe.

The bulk of Friday’s questions by the judge were aimed squarely at Michael Dreeben, the deputy solicitor general who is currently working in Mueller’s office.

While Dreeben conceded that Mueller had inherited the probe into Manafort after his May 2017 appointment by Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, he insisted the office is on solid legal ground and has the power to proceed with prosecuting the case.

“Our investigative scope does cover the activity” in the indictment,” Dreeben told the judge.

“Cover bank fraud in 2005 and 2007? Tell me how!” Ellis retorted.

Friday marked the third time now that Manafort has tried to get the charges against him dropped.

He first filed a civil case alleging the Justice Department’s order appointing Mueller was overly broad in violation of Justice Department rules, but the case was tossed last month.

He is also seeking to get the Washington-based criminal charges against him dismissed on similar legal grounds that were presented to the Virginia judge on Friday.

The federal judge in Washington, Amy Berman Jackson, has not yet ruled on the request to dismiss that indictment.

Friday, however, marked the first time that Manafort’s arguments about the scope of Mueller’s powers appeared to have gained some traction.

During the oral arguments, Ellis repeatedly chided Mueller’s $10 million budget.

He also asked whether Rosenstein, who oversees the probe and is considered an important witness into whether Trump tried to obstruct justice, is recused from the case.

And he repeatedly claimed that the indictment appeared to serve as a way for Mueller to “assert leverage” over Manafort.

“The vernacular,” he said “is to sing.”

Ellis did not issue a ruling on Manafort’s motion to dismiss the indictment Friday.


But he asked why a run-of-the-mill bank fraud case with no “reference to any Russian individual or Russian bank” could not be handed over to the U.S. Attorney’s Office in the Eastern District of Virginia.

As an example, he pointed to the FBI’s probe into Trump’s personal lawyer Michael Cohen, and mused that the special counsel had turned that matter over to prosecutors in Manhattan.

Dreeben declined to discuss the Cohen case, but said that Mueller’s probe into Manafort was authorized by Rosenstein.

Rosenstein’s May 2017 order laying out the scope of the probe, he told the judge, did not reveal all the details because they involve sensitive national security and counterintelligence matters that could not be divulged publicly, but were conveyed to Mueller.

Ellis balked, saying Dreeben’s answer essentially means the Justice Department was “not really telling the truth” about the probe and invites someone to respond by saying, “Come on, man!”

Dreeben also stressed that Rosenstein wrote another memo two months later, in August 2017, explicitly granting Mueller the power to investigate Manafort’s Ukraine dealings years before the 2016 election.

Ellis complained that the bulk of that August memo he has received was highly redacted.

He directed Mueller’s office to take two weeks to consult with U.S. intelligence agencies to see if they will sign off so that he can personally review a sealed, unredacted version of the memo.

Dreeben told him the redacted portions did not pertain to the Manafort case.

“I’ll be the judge,” Ellis said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1I51WE
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Old 05-16-2018, 03:56 PM   #166
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:00 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
It doesn't work that way.
It may not "work" that way in a strict sense of the system. It does "work" that way in the sphere of social influence. Neuroscience experiments have shown the propensity for this time and again.

Now, of course, the Judge will maintain he came to his own conclusion based on his own reading of the material. As he should. If this were not a high profile case, perhaps ignorance of a parallel case would have no effect. Once the perception is in that a particular reading has gained prominence, it is human nature to agree more than disagree. Marketers have known this for quite some time. But compliance studies tell us thinking within professional spheres occurs along the same lines as long as said peers are respected irregardless if they are viewed as rivals.

But, if we're just going to go on the way the system is "supposed to work" and disregard the human nature factor, then I suppose one can say it doesn't work that way.

I'm still fairly confident that once Ellis reads the unredacted material coupled with a colleague's fairly sharp remarks on the matter that resulted in an actual decision, my prediction is that dismissal is all but out, he won't even refer it to a different jurisdiction and it will fall along the same lines of the Jackson decision but with fewer remarks.
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:22 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
It may not "work" that way in a strict sense of the system. It does "work" that way in the sphere of social influence. Neuroscience experiments have shown the propensity for this time and again.
Sure they have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
Now, of course, the Judge will maintain he came to his own conclusion based on his own reading of the material. As he should. If this were not a high profile case, perhaps ignorance of a parallel case would have no effect. Once the perception is in that a particular reading has gained prominence, it is human nature to agree more than disagree. Marketers have known this for quite some time. But compliance studies tell us thinking within professional spheres occurs along the same lines as long as said peers are respected irregardless if they are viewed as rivals.

But, if we're just going to go on the way the system is "supposed to work" and disregard the human nature factor, then I suppose one can say it doesn't work that way.

I'm still fairly confident that once Ellis reads the unredacted material coupled with a colleague's fairly sharp remarks on the matter that resulted in an actual decision, my prediction is that dismissal is all but out, he won't even refer it to a different jurisdiction and it will fall along the same lines of the Jackson decision but with fewer remarks.
How do you account for split decisions on the Supreme Court?
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Old 05-16-2018, 04:26 PM   #169
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Sure they have.



How do you account for split decisions on the Supreme Court?
A propensity is not a certainty, and an appeals court is not a criminal one. The Supreme Court is the final arbiter on what the rule of law ought to be. It does not conduct criminal proceeding. IOW, those Courts have different purposes.

If you like, check out the book, "Influence", I'm not going to argue whether or not these type of studies take place.
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Old 05-16-2018, 05:51 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
It may not "work" that way in a strict sense of the system. It does "work" that way in the sphere of social influence. Neuroscience experiments have shown the propensity for this time and again.

Now, of course, the Judge will maintain he came to his own conclusion based on his own reading of the material. As he should. If this were not a high profile case, perhaps ignorance of a parallel case would have no effect. Once the perception is in that a particular reading has gained prominence, it is human nature to agree more than disagree. Marketers have known this for quite some time. But compliance studies tell us thinking within professional spheres occurs along the same lines as long as said peers are respected irregardless if they are viewed as rivals.

But, if we're just going to go on the way the system is "supposed to work" and disregard the human nature factor, then I suppose one can say it doesn't work that way.

I'm still fairly confident that once Ellis reads the unredacted material coupled with a colleague's fairly sharp remarks on the matter that resulted in an actual decision, my prediction is that dismissal is all but out, he won't even refer it to a different jurisdiction and it will fall along the same lines of the Jackson decision but with fewer remarks.
"I said no, but she said yes, so it must be yes." is not how it works at this level of the courts.
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:30 PM   #171
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Old 05-16-2018, 06:38 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
"I said no, but she said yes, so it must be yes." is not how it works at this level of the courts.
People don't do this consciously, we all believe we are acting independently even though research says we are fooling ourselves.
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Old 05-16-2018, 10:09 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
People don't do this consciously, we all believe we are acting independently even though research says we are fooling ourselves.
No matter how many times you spout your bullshit, it's still going to be bullshit.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:05 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade View Post
A propensity is not a certainty, and an appeals court is not a criminal one. The Supreme Court is the final arbiter on what the rule of law ought to be. It does not conduct criminal proceeding. IOW, those Courts have different purposes.

If you like, check out the book, "Influence", I'm not going to argue whether or not these type of studies take place.
The Supreme Court does handle criminal cases. The difference between the SCOTUS and the district court is that the district court rules on fact as well as law where, as you say, the SCOTUS primarily rules on law. Fact rulings are more likely to diverge than law rulings, because the facts in two cases are always different while the law theoretically is the same. Nonetheless, SCOTUS justices often disagree with each other. So do district judges.
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Old Yesterday, 02:32 PM   #175
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Interesting move.

Mueller lawyers seek to prevent their ouster with dual filings

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...gument-to-toss

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Lawyers from special counsel Robert Mueller’s team have filed as special assistant U.S. attorneys in their case against former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, a move that could make it harder for a federal judge to move the case to a different court.

Politico reported Monday that several attorneys on Mueller’s team signed off on court filings as both representatives of Mueller's office, and as special assistant United States attorneys.

The latter designation potentially gives them the authority to focus on matters beyond the special counsel’s mandate.

Peter Carr, a spokesman for the special counsel’s office, told Politico that the status would give them the same powers as a regular U.S. attorney.

Manafort’s lawyers have motioned to dismiss the charges against him in Virginia, arguing that Mueller exceeded the scope of his legal authority by investigating the former Trump associate’s business dealings.

Politico reported that if Mueller’s lawyers obtained their special status before the first indictment against Manafort, it would likely undermine that argument.

Mueller's team provided the judge in the case, T.S. Ellis III, with an unredacted memo detailing the scope of his investigation last week.

Ellis requested the full memo in order to assess the validity of Manafort's claim that the special counsel had exceeded its scope.

The judge questioned prosecutors at a May 4 court hearing as to why they were interested in Manafort's financial dealings.

He suggested that Mueller's attorneys "don't really care" about bank fraud and tax fraud charges against Manafort, but rather "care about what information Mr. Manafort can give you that would reflect on Mr. Trump."

Manafort's lawyers also sought to dismiss the charges against him in Washington, D.C., but a judge there rejected Manafort's argument.
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Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! View Post
Interesting move.

Mueller lawyers seek to prevent their ouster with dual filings
What
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Do?
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Old Yesterday, 02:59 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! View Post
Interesting move.

Mueller lawyers seek to prevent their ouster with dual filings

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefi...gument-to-toss
Interesting as in why-are-they-trying-to-get-around-the-SC's-scope-limitations or interesting as in cool-move-in-this-anything-goes-when-it-comes-to-getting-Trump environment?
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Old Yesterday, 03:04 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Interesting as in why-are-they-trying-to-get-around-the-SC's-scope-limitations or interesting as in cool-move-in-this-anything-goes-when-it-comes-to-getting-Trump environment?
Just seems like a good legal maneuver considering the "side" they're representing.
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Fire Me Boy! View Post
Just seems like a good legal maneuver considering the "side" they're representing.
Do you think they should be representing a side or trying to get to the truth? Do you think they should be trying to work around their scope limitations or within them?
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Old Yesterday, 03:16 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Do you think they should be representing a side or trying to get to the truth? Do you think they should be trying to work around their scope limitations or within them?
Once charges are filed, isn't it obvious they're on a side? That of prosecuting the person they think committed crimes?
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