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Old 07-15-2017, 10:14 AM  
BucEyedPea BucEyedPea is offline
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Cuck Canadian PM Attempts Collusion with US Governors to Ditch "America First"

Look what we have here—a foreign govt medding in US policy by reaching out to our State Governors, by-passing the US Constitution which authorizes the Legislative branch (Federal Congress—ya' know The People's House) to regulate trade with foreign countries, between the states, and with Native American nations in Article I, S…ection 8, Clause 3.

I think globalism is ushering in some blurring of national borders and sovereignty but this is a first for a Canadian PM, a country that has been considered a friend.

What is he advocating? Trudeau is urging "thinner borders."

This was done in blatant opposition to the position Trump ran on. The more we integrate with trade agreements, climate accords and international in scope treaties, the more the America will disappear and become just another cog in a sweeping international bureaucracy run by technocrats who get to set themselves up as the kingmakers.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has told governors from across the US to ditch the "America First" motto.

In his speech, Mr Trudeau urged US governors to embrace their neighbour to the north and avoid protectionism.

It is all a part of his aggressive strategy to promote a "thinner border" ahead of vital trade talks with the US renegotiating the Nafta treaty.

"If anything, we would like a thinner border, not a thicker one."

Earlier in the day, Mr Trudeau had talks with governors from Wisconsin, Kentucky, Rhode Island and Iowa.

But over the past several months, Canada has sent everyone from cabinet ministers to provincial premiers to the mayor of Toronto to plead its case.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40612669
The simply erodes national sovereignty and NAFTA is actually loaded with protectionism and socialism. Just another wealth transfer program but between nations.

Trudeau needs to be ridden out on a rail with some tar and feathers on him. Or we should at least do it in effigy.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
BTW giving such trade power to a President under Fast Track Authority is another usurpation by our Congress of the Constitution. Congress does not have any authority to transfer it's powers to any president for negotiating trade. That began in 1974, with trade promotion authority "minimizing consideration of the public interest, and limiting the legislature's influence over the bill to an up or down vote." That power belongs to Congress—the People's House.
The constitution grants Congress the power to make it's own rules. If they want a rule that requires an up or down vote without amendments, that's their prerogative.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
He's normally an rude, uncivil dick.
hamas threw out an argument that wasn't even being made.

If he was saying Republicans favored Governors meeting with foreign leaders in 2010 but not now, that's just a really weird conclusion. Nobody ever made such a silly argument
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:22 PM   #18
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I have no intention of engaging with you patteeu for a rinse-n-repeat circular argument for the umpteenth time. I know where you stand and I disagree. You don't understand free market economics. You support BIG government.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
In your opinion.

I am playing on the same type of thing as current Democrats, use of hyperbole, when I use "collusion" here. However, it is meddling when he is working against an elected president like this. Take that how you want, but I don't like it.




Yeah, like Trudeau is doing—just on a nation-state basis as opposed to an industry basis.




Apparently, you think NAFTA is about free-trade. Have you ever read it —or even just portions? It's full of protectionism as well as profuse with regulations.



I just told you how NAFTA is loaded with protectionism, many regulations and I'll add socialism for losses. I even posted specific parts where such things exist in the past. It's a wealth redistribution program for poor countries just as the climate accord is.

Explain to me how thousands of pages in several volumes is "free" trade?

That question is not rhetorical.

All free-trade requires is lowering or abolishing all tariffs. That can even be done unilaterally even if other countries don't. Or it can be done nation between nation apart from some international bureaucracy. It is not necessary and it's not exactly Constitutional even.

Nafta requires a Constitutional amendment to surrender any national sovereignty to international bodies. Nafta was not passed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress nor ratified by three-quarters of the states as a constitutional amendment.

It doesn't require sovereignty-eroding agreements to have free-trade. Republicans are being duped and don't know their economics.They are the party of crony capitalism and corporatism. This is a blind-spot even with grass-roots Republicans, who are mainly mis-informed about it. That's because, what NAFTA is, has been well-disguised the same way we hear that taxes are an "investment." Part of this is due to the mainstream media's ignorance—and that includes Fox. I, however, don't think most in Congress even read it.

True conservatives and true free-market adherents have pointed out for years how nafta tribunal claims superiority over the U.S. Supreme court, lower courts and federal and state agencies.

We were told how it would reduce immigration from Mexico too. How'd that turn out? Look at what Vincent Fox of Mexico said about it:


http://www.wnd.com/2007/10/44047/
I admitted it wasn't perfect. There's a reason there are frequent calls for re-negotiation let alone perpetual litigation amid some industries pertinent to the purported agreement violations.

What you also have to look at with regards to the "protections/re-distributions" you cite are some simple factors:
- proximity, shipping/receiving efficiencies under shared agreements
- goods/resources/industries sought in trade
- consumption levels (consider the high population disparities among the three countries)
- subsidized vs. non-subsidized industry
- impact of federal regulation for things like food safety, pedigreed product, etc.
- essential service qualifying factors (power/electricity export as an example)

Amid all these complications, it was deemed preferable to enter into NAFTA some time ago to alleviate some of the red-tape, litigious procedures that existed prior. What you cite as a "scam" was negotiated. There is going to be give and take in such agreements. For every industry you help with protections, you likely hurt others.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
hamas threw out an argument that wasn't even being made.

If he was saying Republicans favored Governors meeting with foreign leaders in 2010 but not now, that's just a really weird conclusion. Nobody ever made such a silly argument
Well, I thought if a governor met with foreign leaders, that would be collusion to him and his ilk. I thought it would be against the Logan Act to him and his ilk, though that's regarding foreign policy. In a way it is a type of boundary that infringes on FP as it deals with foreign nations. That power, still belongs to the federal congress not any state governor.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:26 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I have no intention of engaging with you patteeu for a rinse-n-repeat circular argument for the umpteenth time. I know where you stand and I disagree. You don't understand free market economics. You support BIG government.
Thanks for engaging with me, but I'm really just posting to highlight your logic-free idealism.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:31 PM   #22
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I admitted it wasn't perfect.
I know that, but my argument is that it isn't even free trade—period! You ignore that it erodes our laws and thus our sovereignty. That being said, it's beyond just just not being "perfect."

Quote:
There's a reason there are frequent calls for re-negotiation let alone perpetual litigation amid some industries pertinent to the purported agreement violations.
It should be completely repealed as far as I am concerned. Fact is we were a wealthier and economically successful country BEFORE we had it.

Because really, when you really look at it with more depth, it is a wealth redistribution program just from the wealthier to the poorer nations.

Quote:
What you also have to look at with regards to the "protections/re-distributions" you cite are some simple factors:
- proximity, shipping/receiving efficiencies under shared agreements
- goods/resources/industries sought in trade
- consumption levels (consider the high population disparities among the three countries)
- subsidized vs. non-subsidized industry
- impact of federal regulation for things like food safety, pedigreed product, etc.
- essential service qualifying factors (power/electricity export as an example)
Nope

Quote:
Amid all these complications, it was deemed preferable to enter into NAFTA some time ago to alleviate some of the red-tape, litigious procedures that existed prior. What you cite as a "scam" was negotiated. There is going to be give and take in such agreements. For every industry you help with protections, you likely hurt others.
I don't care that it was deemed "preferable". You're endorsing a 20th century version of mercantilism. It's not my argument. Besides that it just adds new red-tape and bypasses local and state laws.

You're willing to erode sovereignty and independence for a buck.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
Well, I thought if a governor met with foreign leaders, that would be collusion to him and his ilk. I thought it would be against the Logan Act to him and his ilk, though that's regarding foreign policy. In a way it is a type of boundary that infringes on FP as it deals with foreign nations. That power, still belongs to the federal congress not any state governor.
In order for his point to have made any sense, you'd have previously argued the opposite. Since you didn't, I have no idea what his point was
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:33 PM   #24
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In order for his point to have made any sense, you'd have previously argued the opposite. Since you didn't, I have no idea what his point was
To be a dick.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:34 PM   #25
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I find it hilarious that a left-wing socialist like Trudeau is arguing for free-trade. That is another tell-tale sign of what nafta really is.

And he is INTERFERING with local govts. Foreign meddling.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:52 PM   #26
Chief Northman Chief Northman is offline
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I know that, but my argument is that it isn't even free trade—period! You ignore that it erodes our laws and thus our sovereignty. That being said, it's beyond just just not being "perfect."



It should be completely repealed as far as I am concerned. Fact is we were a wealthier and economically successful country BEFORE we had it.

Because really, when you really look at it with more depth, it is a wealth redistribution program just from the wealthier to the poorer nations.


Nope



I don't care that it was deemed "preferable". You're endorsing a 20th century version of mercantilism. It's not my argument. Besides that it just adds new red-tape and bypasses local and state laws.

You're willing to erode sovereignty and independence for a buck.
If the US was so much more wealthy and profitable before NAFTA then why did they enter into it?
Call it mercantilism or what you will - the fact is, it has to happen. You happen to like our abundance of raw resouces. We like your ability to manufacture them. Countries benefitting from an ability to reasonably consume the finished product is a good thing.
Don't whine about the sovereignty/independence issue. There are a handful of states that would gladly remain in the agreement if given the choice. Rules are rules - whether you feel they somehow infringe on sovereignty is besides the point. INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT.
I, and my family have had long ties to the agricultural industry. We never felt any less sovereign or independent as Canadians when our market grew. We adapted to change and made the best of things, even when things weren't always favourable. Because we were diversified, things tended to even out.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:01 PM   #27
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If the US was so much more wealthy and profitable before NAFTA then why did they enter into it?
You'll have to answer those who supported it. I answered that in earlier posts anyways— because it was misrepresented as free-trade and not read by most.


Quote:
Call it mercantilism or what you will - the fact is, it has to happen.
No it doesn't. Nothing "has to happen." What I think needs to happen is to repeal it. Then lower tariffs.

Quote:
You happen to like our abundance of raw resouces. We like your ability to manufacture them. Countries benefitting from an ability to reasonably consume the finished product is a good thing.
I didn't say I was against free trade either. My argument is that it is not free-trade.


Quote:
Don't whine about the sovereignty/independence issue.
It's not a whine. That's your opinion and a mischaracterization. It's exposing it for what it is and make it more known. It's transparency. I'll continue to advocate against it. Including doubling-down if I have to.

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There are a handful of states that would gladly remain in the agreement if given the choice.
It's not their decision under our Constitution.

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Rules are rules - whether you feel they somehow infringe on sovereignty is besides the point. INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT.

If rules are rules, then the rules in our Constitution over rule it. It was called an "AGREEMENT" for one reason, it could not make it through the treaty process. It's another end-run around our Constitution. Republicans who support it are just as guilty as Obama when they violate it.


Quote:
I, and my family have had long ties to the agricultural industry. We never felt any less sovereign or independent as Canadians when our market grew. We adapted to change and made the best of things, even when things weren't always favourable. Because we were diversified, things tended to even out.
Ahhh, I see now. You're a vested interest in the deal getting market share via govt intervention in markets. I always said the deal favors certain interests. That makes sense. Just admit you don't favor free-trade but govt managed trade that benefits certain industries and corporations.

Though, it's not like you couldn't benefit from true free-trade that lowers tariffs or is negotiated bi-laterally and we get to maintain sovereignty to boot.

Your vested interest, is not what many Americans support or care about though. America First! All of it—not just certain industries or interest groups.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by BucEyedPea View Post
I find it hilarious that a left-wing socialist like Trudeau is arguing for free-trade. That is another tell-tale sign of what nafta really is.

And he is INTERFERING without local govts. Foreign meddling.
Ummm.....
Free trade has been around since the mid 80s under Conservative and Liberal governments over the last 35 years.

Do you know how often our provincial premiers and your state governors meet to discuss trade and form partnerships and promote investment? Get out from under your rock. NAFTA/free trade will be a greatly contested issue in the US whether participating in it or not as it produces some winners and some losers depending on the economic cycle.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Chief Northman View Post
Ummm.....
Free trade has been around since the mid 80s under Conservative and Liberal governments over the last 35 years.
Then why did we need NAFTA in the mid 1990's if that were the case?
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Do you know how often our provincial premiers and your state governors meet to discuss trade and form partnerships and promote investment?
We have provincial premiers?

Quote:
Do you cuss trade and form partnerships and promote investment?
I am arguing for what is actually "free trade" if'n you noticed. I support private and free-enterprise to promote investment—not some form of steering, much like central planning, by govts.

I support liberty and true free trade.

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Get out from under your rock.
Go **** yourself and get out from under your rock.

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NAFTA/free trade
Those two words don't belong together because NAFTA is NOT "free-trade". It is managed trade.
Therefore putting those two words together is an oxymoron.

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... will be a greatly contested issue in the US whether participating in it or not as it produces some winners and some losers depending on the economic cycle.
Free-trade cannot just be hurled out there without really defining it.

Meanwhile you support international agreements enforced and regulated by unelected bureaucrats to determine the winners or losers. You support govt picking the winners and losers and managing trade by govt. None of that is free-trade. It's the opposite. Apparently, you can't see it nor have understood I word that I wrote including a link to a true free trade economic institute. You haven't refuted my claim—at all but ignore it which doesn't address it. You keep insisting it's "free-trade" when I said it was the opposite and you assumed I was anti-free trade. That's a combination of strawman arguments and red herrings.
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:16 PM   #30
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If rules are rules, then the rules in our Constitution over rule it. It was called an "AGREEMENT" for one reason, it could not make it through the treaty process. It's another end-run around our Constitution. Republicans who support it are just as guilty as Obama when they violate it.
It's not a treaty, but it's not an end run around the constitution. It was implemented through our normal, constitutionally authorized legislative process instead of the treaty ratification process.
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patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.patteeu is obviously part of the inner Circle.
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