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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:18 PM   #121
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Response: oh yeah, well you believe that 9/11 was an inside job you conspiracy theorist nut.


That's right. I agree with most everybody else on that point. I'm not one of the diminishing group who still believes in the cover story.

Not that it has anything to do with Kotter lining up for neocons anytime they put their name on a ballot like a good little bleater.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:21 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Response: oh yeah, well you believe that 9/11 was an inside job you conspiracy theorist nut.


That's right. I agree with most everybody else on that point. I'm not one of the diminishing group who still believes in the cover story.

Not that it has anything to do with Kotter lining up for neocons anytime they put their name on a ballot like a good little bleater.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:28 PM   #123
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There's not even a crime for their to be an investigation—that's what's ridiculous about it.
6
Collusion is NOT a crime.
Still got Donger on "ignore" I see....
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:32 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Response: oh yeah, well you believe that 9/11 was an inside job you conspiracy theorist nut.


That's right. I agree with most everybody else on that point. I'm not one of the diminishing group who still believes in the cover story.

Not that it has anything to do with Kotter lining up for neocons anytime they put their name on a ballot like a good little bleater.
9/11, pizzagate, Seth Rich being the DNC hacker.

As long as the enemy is in your crosshairs, it doesn't matter to you whether the conspiracy has any real legs.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:41 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
9/11, pizzagate, Seth Rich being the DNC hacker.

As long as the enemy is in your crosshairs, it doesn't matter to you whether the conspiracy has any real legs.
I go where the truth leads regardless of the dopes who need to be square in the middle of the herd. Has nothing to do with "the enemy." It has everything to do with following the truth.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:44 PM   #126
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Still waiting for any sort of illegal collusion to hack the vote. None. Nothing even close. Getting dirt on someone that is offering, is not illegal, not immoral and pretty much everyone does it.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:51 PM   #127
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This is Paul Allen's Yacht. It cost $200 million dollars. It represents roughly the same amount of money that Hillary outspent Trump to lose the election.

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Old 07-14-2017, 10:55 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by jaa1025 View Post
Still waiting for any sort of illegal collusion to hack the vote. None. Nothing even close. Getting dirt on someone that is offering, is not illegal, not immoral and pretty much everyone does it.
A year in and we're still 'speculating'
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:18 PM   #129
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This is Paul Allen's Yacht. It cost $200 million dollars. It represents roughly the same amount of money that Hillary outspent Trump to lose the election.

Or 50 million more than Putin deposited into the Clinton foundation after the uranium 1 deal.
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Sounds like a great idea. I got some friends at DHS and the CIA, who would really love to read your stuff from here.

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Old 07-14-2017, 11:25 PM   #130
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Forgive me for using your post to make this response because you're far from the first to make an argument like this, but it's kind of stupid. When there was no public evidence of X, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out. When evidence of X becomes public, but Y is still unsupported, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out too.

There was no evidence of X because the people in the Trump campaign came out and straight out lied that there was no contact with the Russians. And there was no evidence of Y because people in the Trump campaign came out and straight up lied about who was there and what they talked about. And there was no evidence of Z yet, because people in the Trump campaign are still lying about everything that hasn't yet been leaked/proven by press.

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What doesn't make sense is to argue that something that requires X, Y, and Z is obvious despite the lack of evidence for any of it just because a couple of guys in Trumps campaign lied in a way that might be consistent with X, Y, and Z. So you don't really deserve to do any victory dances.

So just when does it make sense to say that the people around Trump are lying every inch of the way and given that there is now plenty of smoke for X, Y, and Z we should be entitled to assume the worse until proven otherwise?

It's not like we are talking about some real estate developer who maybe stiffed his contractors a few million dollars. We are talking about the leader of the free world and the commander in chief of the most powerful army on earth.


And also, anyone who thinks we should also be judging Hillary by the same standard, she's not the criminal caricature that Fox makes her out to be, but there is no doubt a level of sleaze and soft corruption, if not worse,

so...

I'm happy to support impeaching her and having Tim Kaine as our President.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:34 PM   #131
NJChiefsFan27 NJChiefsFan27 is offline
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I go where the truth leads regardless of the dopes who need to be square in the middle of the herd. Has nothing to do with "the enemy." It has everything to do with following the truth.
Right, so you were totally on the attempted collusion by the Trump campaign right? Just show me where I can find those posts and we can proceed.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:41 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Chief NUMBNUTS View Post
There was no evidence of X because the people in the Trump campaign came out and straight out lied that there was no contact with the Russians. And there was no evidence of Y because people in the Trump campaign came out and straight up lied about who was there and what they talked about. And there was no evidence of Z yet, because people in the Trump campaign are still lying about everything that hasn't yet been leaked/proven by press.




So just when does it make sense to say that the people around Trump are lying every inch of the way and given that there is now plenty of smoke for X, Y, and Z we should be entitled to assume the worse until proven otherwise?

It's not like we are talking about some real estate developer who maybe stiffed his contractors a few million dollars. We are talking about the leader of the free world and the commander in chief of the most powerful army on earth.


And also, anyone who thinks we should also be judging Hillary by the same standard, she's not the criminal caricature that Fox makes her out to be, but there is no doubt a level of sleaze and soft corruption, if not worse,

so...

I'm happy to support impeaching her and having Tim Kaine as our President.
Or is it numbnutz?
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Sounds like a great idea. I got some friends at DHS and the CIA, who would really love to read your stuff from here.

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Old 07-14-2017, 11:41 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
Right, so you were totally on the attempted collusion by the Trump campaign right? Just show me where I can find those posts and we can proceed.
Do you sleep with that green Teddy Bear?
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Sounds like a great idea. I got some friends at DHS and the CIA, who would really love to read your stuff from here.

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Old 07-14-2017, 11:45 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by NJChiefsFan27 View Post
Right, so you were totally on the attempted collusion by the Trump campaign right? Just show me where I can find those posts and we can proceed.
Attempted collusion?

Define collusion. So far the evidence shows a guy listened. Listening is not collusion.
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Old 07-14-2017, 11:46 PM   #135
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Also, what is "attempted collusion?"

There is no crime called "collusion" so I'm not sure what you're even talking about.
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