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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:40 PM   #106
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There's not even a crime for their to be an investigation—that's what's ridiculous about it.

Collusion is NOT a crime.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:40 PM   #107
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:00 PM   #108
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There's not even a crime for their to be an investigation—that's what's ridiculous about it.

Collusion is NOT a crime.
That's your opinion.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:05 PM   #109
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Krauthammer is not a "conservative". He is a McCain. Establishment. Hardly a conservative. Just claims to be one. The epitome of a RINO if you will.
You're clueless.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:10 PM   #110
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https://mobile.twitter.com/FoxNews/s...911234/video/1
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:27 PM   #111
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I read Wikileaks you dumb ****.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:29 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
All the "there's no proof of collusion! No evidence!" that have NOW become...."but....but, it's not a violation of the law! It's not, technically, "illegal!" moving of the goalposts is hysterical....

Hell, and the investigations are really just BEGINNING....

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Forgive me for using your post to make this response because you're far from the first to make an argument like this, but it's kind of stupid. When there was no public evidence of X, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out. When evidence of X becomes public, but Y is still unsupported, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out too.

What doesn't make sense is to argue that something that requires X, Y, and Z is obvious despite the lack of evidence for any of it just because a couple of guys in Trumps campaign lied in a way that might be consistent with X, Y, and Z. So you don't really deserve to do any victory dances.
It's stupid because it's not even moving any goal posts.

Hypothetical, Kotter is somehow important enough to merit an opposition campaign. Those opposed to him start with allegations that he's a traitor, a murderer, a thief, a jaywalker, and just an all around jerk.

If I pipe up and say 'hey, I've never seen him be a jerk.' that doesn't mean that, if future events bear out that he can indeed be a bit of a jerk on occasion, I have forfeited the right to nevertheless argue that being a jerk isn't a criminal offense, or that his penchant for being a jerk to others on occasion isn't a big deal to me.

That's the thing, Trump's detractors have blurted out their accusations with bazooka, hoping that enough ominous sounding things hang in the air long enough that the populace will eventually just plain sour on the entire debate of whether he's 'a good guy'

You're like the boy who cried wolf, . . . who is ironically now trying to claim vindication because Donald Jr. might have been seen once walking with a harmless little doggy EVEN THOUGH the Trump family denied all wolf and wolf-like ties!!

Now matter how ominously you hiss it, or how conspiratorial your intonation, 'collusion' is a harmless little doggy until you actually refine it from a nebulous ambiguous charge to a concrete criminal offense.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:30 PM   #113
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Trump's assault on the first amendment??? This is a ****ing joke, right?
Give VAchief a break, he's probably never even read the Bill of Rights.
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:35 PM   #114
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:39 PM   #115
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Old 07-14-2017, 09:42 PM   #116
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Aw, gotta hand it to you Trumpster types.....blind loyalty is a "special" skill...

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Old 07-14-2017, 09:47 PM   #117
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Aw, gotta hand it to you Trumpster types.....blind loyalty is a "special" skill...

OTOH, blind petulance, anger and temper tantruming requires nothing more than egocentric emotionalism.

I'm not going to dig it up and dwell on it just to rub your face in it, but I asked you a while back to be honest whether you felt there were actual criminal violations or merely hoped there were enough 'shady' things to cobble together a national sense of remorse. I'm sure you remember your reply.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:10 PM   #118
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Aw, gotta hand it to you Trumpster types.....blind loyalty is a "special" skill...

Blind loyalty to Trump?

LOL!

That's hilarious.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:11 PM   #119
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OTOH, blind petulance, anger and temper tantruming requires nothing more than egocentric emotionalism.

I'm not going to dig it up and dwell on it just to rub your face in it, but I asked you a while back to be honest whether you felt there were actual criminal violations or merely hoped there were enough 'shady' things to cobble together a national sense of remorse. I'm sure you remember your reply.

Kotter and the rest of the Dems have been embarrassing themselves for a year.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:17 PM   #120
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Kotter and the rest of the Dems have been embarrassing themselves for a year.
Kotter voted for Clinton, Bush, and then Obama and Hillary. There's not a neocon that he doesn't line up for, and here's the best part: he lines up for them thinking he's doing so for their centrist domestic viewpoints. He's their bread and butter. Kotter has been embarrassing himself for a lot longer than a year.
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