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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:35 PM   #91
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All the "there's no proof of collusion! No evidence!" that have NOW become...."but....but, it's not a violation of the law! It's not, technically, "illegal!" moving of the goalposts is hysterical....

Hell, and the investigations are really just BEGINNING....

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Old 07-14-2017, 07:41 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
All the "there's no proof of collusion! No evidence!" that have NOW become...."but....but, it's not a violation of the law! It's not, technically, "illegal!" moving of the goalposts is hysterical....

Hell, and the investigations are really just BEGINNING....


No one has moved the goalposts. We're still waiting for actual evidence of collusion.

The investigation started about 8 months ago beginning with your boy, Barack.

7-8 months in and we're still in the 'speculation' phase.

Very sad!
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:46 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
All the "there's no proof of collusion! No evidence!" that have NOW become...."but....but, it's not a violation of the law! It's not, technically, "illegal!" moving of the goalposts is hysterical....

Hell, and the investigations are really just BEGINNING....

Forgive me for using your post to make this response because you're far from the first to make an argument like this, but it's kind of stupid. When there was no public evidence of X, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out. When evidence of X becomes public, but Y is still unsupported, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out too.

What doesn't make sense is to argue that something that requires X, Y, and Z is obvious despite the lack of evidence for any of it just because a couple of guys in Trumps campaign lied in a way that might be consistent with X, Y, and Z. So you don't really deserve to do any victory dances.
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Old 07-14-2017, 07:55 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New World Order View Post
No one has moved the goalposts. We're still waiting for actual evidence of collusion.

The investigation started about 8 months ago beginning with your boy, Barack.

7-8 months in and we're still in the 'speculation' phase.

Very sad!
The REAL investigation began in mid-May, when the GOP could no longer STONEWALL the investigations....when Mueller was appointed, dipshit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
Forgive me for using your post to make this response because you're far from the first to make an argument like this, but it's kind of stupid. When there was no public evidence of X, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out. When evidence of X becomes public, but Y is still unsupported, it makes all the sense in the world for Trump supporters to point that out too.

What doesn't make sense is to argue that something that requires X, Y, and Z is obvious despite the lack of evidence for any of it just because a couple of guys in Trumps campaign lied in a way that might be consistent with X, Y, and Z. So you don't really deserve to do any victory dances.
Patty, moving the goal posts....regardless, is not encouraging; there IS evidence of X....even if it's still under investigation. Saying, "hey, there's nothing to be seen here!" again and again, while there clearly IS something "there"--even if it's not illegal (yet?)....invites suspicion and ridicule. I'll await the results of the real investigations, but all these lies, deflections, and evasion.....are, indeed, entertaining.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:03 PM   #95
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The DNC collusion with the media is way more dangerous than this investigation in search of a crime could ever be.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:06 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baitism View Post
The DNC collusion with the media is way more dangerous than this investigation in search of a crime could ever be.
Watching FOX and Hannity, I see....good lap dog--GOOD lap dog Lemming!!!
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:07 PM   #97
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It's pretty pathetic how easy it is for mainstream media to manipulate the minds of the people. It's still a giant nothing burger no matter what spin sauce you put on it and it always will be, because it's made up.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:09 PM   #98
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It's pretty pathetic how easy it is for mainstream media to manipulate the minds of the people. It's still a giant nothing burger no matter what spin sauce you put on it and it always will be, because it's made up.


"I am NOT a crook!"




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Old 07-14-2017, 08:12 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Patty, moving the goal posts....regardless, is not encouraging; there IS evidence of X....even if it's still under investigation. Saying, "hey, there's nothing to be seen here!" again and again, while there clearly IS something "there"--even if it's not illegal (yet?)....invites suspicion and ridicule. I'll await the results of the real investigations, but all these lies, deflections, and evasion.....are, indeed, entertaining.
It's not moving the goal posts. That was my point.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:14 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
The REAL investigation began in mid-May, when the GOP could no longer STONEWALL the investigations....when Mueller was appointed, dipshit.





Patty, moving the goal posts....regardless, is not encouraging; there IS evidence of X....even if it's still under investigation. Saying, "hey, there's nothing to be seen here!" again and again, while there clearly IS something "there"--even if it's not illegal (yet?)....invites suspicion and ridicule. I'll await the results of the real investigations, but all these lies, deflections, and evasion.....are, indeed, entertaining.
idiotic post of the day
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:16 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
All the "there's no proof of collusion! No evidence!" that have NOW become...."but....but, it's not a violation of the law! It's not, technically, "illegal!" moving of the goalposts is hysterical....

Hell, and the investigations are really just BEGINNING....



Keep dreaming, we'll never stop winning and you leftists will never stop losing. Your great grandchildren will be laughing at your kind in their history books.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:21 PM   #102
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Trump's assault on the first ammendment and the free press is way more dangerous
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:24 PM   #103
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Trump's assault on the first amendment??? This is a ****ing joke, right?
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All kinds of people vote. Not enough of those people think highly enough of Trump to make him President but all kinds of people vote.
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So, if they were polling better than Trump and the primary goal was to prevent Hillary from becoming POTUS, perhaps it would have been a better strategic decision to nominate someone who actually had a chance of beating her and preventing that than nominating Donald Trump.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:24 PM   #104
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Donger isn't a conservative in the American sense. No true American conservative refers to America as a democracy. He's a Tory transplant. European conservatives are a completely different animal than their American counterparts. This is Donger. He's no revolutionary.
That's your opinion.
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Old 07-14-2017, 08:32 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
The REAL investigation began in mid-May, when the GOP could no longer STONEWALL the investigations....when Mueller was appointed, dipshit.



I see.

So it's a new and REAL investigation in comparison with the other federal investigation, a fake one that started a year ago

Idiot.

Edit: started last July.

Last edited by New World Order; 07-14-2017 at 08:50 PM..
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