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Old 07-14-2017, 02:29 PM  
Donger Donger is offline
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Bungled collusion is still collusion

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.4cd5051349c0

The Russia scandal has entered a new phase, and there’s no going back.

For six months, the White House claimed that this scandal was nothing more than innuendo about Trump campaign collusion with Russia in meddling in the 2016 election. Innuendo for which no concrete evidence had been produced.

Yes, there were several meetings with Russian officials, some only belatedly disclosed. But that is circumstantial evidence at best. Meetings tell you nothing unless you know what happened in them. We didn’t. Some of these were casual encounters in large groups, like the famous July 2016 Kislyak-Sessions exchange of pleasantries at the Republican National Convention. Big deal.

I was puzzled. Lots of coverup, but where was the crime? Not even a third-rate burglary. For six months, smoke without fire. Yes, President Trump himself was acting very defensively, as if he were hiding something. But no one ever produced the something.

My view was: Collusion? I just don’t see it. But I’m open to empirical evidence. Show me.

The evidence is now shown. This is not hearsay, not fake news, not unsourced leaks. This is an email chain released by Donald Trump Jr. himself. A British go-between writes that there’s a Russian government effort to help Trump Sr. win the election, and as part of that effort he proposes a meeting with a “Russian government attorney” possessing damaging information on Hillary Clinton. Moreover, the Kremlin is willing to share troves of incriminating documents from the Crown Prosecutor. (Error: Britain has a Crown Prosecutor. Russia has a Prosecutor General.)

Donald Jr. emails back. “I love it.” Fatal words.

Once you’ve said “I’m in,” it makes no difference that the meeting was a bust, that the intermediary brought no such goods. What matters is what Donald Jr. thought going into the meeting, as well as Jared Kushner and then-campaign manager Paul Manafort, who were forwarded the correspondence, invited to the meeting, and attended.

“It was literally just a wasted 20 minutes, which was a shame,” Donald Jr. told Sean Hannity. A shame? On the contrary, a stroke of luck. Had the lawyer real stuff to deliver, Donald Jr. and the others would be in far deeper legal trouble. It turned out to be incompetent collusion, amateur collusion, comically failed collusion. That does not erase the fact that three top Trump campaign officials were ready to play.

It may turn out that they did later collaborate more fruitfully. We don’t know. But even if nothing else is found, the evidence is damning.

It’s rather pathetic to hear Trump apologists protesting that it’s no big deal because we Americans are always intervening in other people’s elections, and they in ours. You don’t have to go back to the ’40s and ’50s when the CIA intervened in France and Italy to keep the communists from coming to power. What about the Obama administration’s blatant interference to try to defeat Benjamin Netanyahu in the latest Israeli election? One might even add the work of groups supported by the U.S. during Russian parliamentary elections — the very origin of Vladimir Putin’s deep animus toward Clinton, then secretary of state, whom he accuses of having orchestrated the opposition.

This defense is pathetic for two reasons. First, have the Trumpites not been telling us for six months that no collusion ever happened? And now they say: Sure it happened. So what? Everyone does it.

What’s left of your credibility when you make such a casual about-face?

Second, no, not everyone does it. It’s one thing to be open to opposition research dug up in Indiana. But not dirt from Russia, a hostile foreign power that has repeatedly invaded its neighbors (Georgia, Crimea, eastern Ukraine), that buzzes our planes and ships in international waters, that opposes our every move and objective around the globe. Just last week the Kremlin killed additional U.N. sanctions we were looking to impose on North Korea for its ICBM test.

There is no statute against helping a foreign hostile power meddle in an American election. What Donald Jr. — and Kushner and Manafort — did may not be criminal. But it is not merely stupid. It is also deeply wrong, a fundamental violation of any code of civic honor.

I leave it to the lawyers to adjudicate the legalities of unconsummated collusion. But you don’t need a lawyer to see that the Trump defense — collusion as a desperate Democratic fiction designed to explain away a lost election — is now officially dead.
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:12 AM   #136
Easy 6 Easy 6 is offline
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Junior is guilty of nothing more than being naive

A phone call or two would've given him an idea of who he would be talking to, its definitely an amateur hour move

But high crimes and collusion with Russia?

Lefties and Never Trumpers are only readying themselves for yet another ugly surprise come election day... the electorate that put him there isnt going away anytime soon

People are tired of the same old game
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Old 07-15-2017, 12:45 AM   #137
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"Bungled collusion is still collusion"

I didn't realize it was bungled. Didn't Russia get their uranium?
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Old 07-15-2017, 01:05 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
I go where the truth leads regardless of the dopes who need to be square in the middle of the herd. Has nothing to do with "the enemy." It has everything to do with following the truth.
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Old 07-15-2017, 04:46 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Easy 6 View Post
Junior is guilty of nothing more than being naive

A phone call or two would've given him an idea of who he would be talking to, its definitely an amateur hour move

But high crimes and collusion with Russia?

Lefties and Never Trumpers are only readying themselves for yet another ugly surprise come election day... the electorate that put him there isnt going away anytime soon

People are tired of the same old game
Except Manafort and Kushner were forwarded the emails that described the meeting. Naivety is a bad excuse. And then there's the continuous lies.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:22 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Obviously you have nothing to say and are tapping out. That's a good idea because you look sillier with each response.
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Old 07-15-2017, 05:24 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Taco John View Post
Attempted collusion?

Define collusion. So far the evidence shows a guy listened. Listening is not collusion.
Do you or do you not think that Lyin' Junior would have passed along the dirt he thought he was getting?
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:41 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
Do you or do you not think that Lyin' Junior would have passed along the dirt he thought he was getting?
We will never know, but IMO he was doing his due by listening.

Just read a story where they are projecting that he may be the sacrificial lamb put forward to divert the heat away from those actually on the President's staff.

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump...adviser-634904

The conspiracy theories run rampant.

We must really look like a joke to the rest of the world, eating our young.
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Old 07-15-2017, 06:52 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by HemiEd View Post
We will never know, but IMO he was doing his due by listening.

Just read a story where they are projecting that he may be the sacrificial lamb put forward to divert the heat away from those actually on the President's staff.

http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump...adviser-634904

The conspiracy theories run rampant.

We must really look like a joke to the rest of the world, eating our young.
Well, why do you think Lyin' Junior would "love" getting the information?

As, to the article above, it seems rather reaching, considering Kushner was at the meeting, too.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:09 AM   #144
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There was no evidence of X because the people in the Trump campaign came out and straight out lied that there was no contact with the Russians. And there was no evidence of Y because people in the Trump campaign came out and straight up lied about who was there and what they talked about. And there was no evidence of Z yet, because people in the Trump campaign are still lying about everything that hasn't yet been leaked/proven by press.
Yes, but you can't impute the knowledge of Trump campaign officials to posters at ChiefsPlanet. Here we're limited by publicly available evidence, so when someone says there's no evidence, they mean there's no public evidence at this time.

And in the same way that critics can say that the Trump camp has a history of lying which leads those critics to suspect more is to come, the supporters have 6+ months of leaks that promise more but don't deliver which leads them to suspect little is likely to come.

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Originally Posted by Chief Pagan View Post
So just when does it make sense to say that the people around Trump are lying every inch of the way and given that there is now plenty of smoke for X, Y, and Z we should be entitled to assume the worse until proven otherwise?

It's not like we are talking about some real estate developer who maybe stiffed his contractors a few million dollars. We are talking about the leader of the free world and the commander in chief of the most powerful army on earth.


And also, anyone who thinks we should also be judging Hillary by the same standard, she's not the criminal caricature that Fox makes her out to be, but there is no doubt a level of sleaze and soft corruption, if not worse,

so...

I'm happy to support impeaching her and having Tim Kaine as our President.
Haha. It's been fair to point out that the Trump camp has acted suspiciously and lied way to much for a long time now.

That's different than criticizing supporters for not jumping to unproven conclusions about why they're lying like many of the critics have though.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:12 AM   #145
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FWIW

https://apnews.com/dceed1008d8f45afb...&#39;s-meeting

Veselnitskaya brought with her a plastic folder with printed-out documents that detailed what she believed was the flow of illicit funds to the Democrats, Akhmetshin said. Veselnitskaya presented the contents of the documents to the Trump associates and suggested that making the information public could help the campaign, he said.

“This could be a good issue to expose how the DNC is accepting bad money,” Akhmetshin recalled her saying.

Trump Jr. asked the attorney if she had sufficient evidence to back up her claims, including whether she could demonstrate the flow of the money. But Veselnitskaya said the Trump campaign would need to research it more. After that, Trump Jr. lost interest, according to Akhmetshin.

“They couldn’t wait for the meeting to end,” he said.

Akhmetshin said he does not know if Veselnitskaya’s documents were provided by the Russian government. He said he thinks she left the materials with the Trump associates. It was unclear if she handed the documents to anyone in the room or simply left them behind, he said.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:15 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Donger View Post
FWIW

https://apnews.com/dceed1008d8f45afb...&#39;s-meeting

Veselnitskaya brought with her a plastic folder with printed-out documents that detailed what she believed was the flow of illicit funds to the Democrats, Akhmetshin said. Veselnitskaya presented the contents of the documents to the Trump associates and suggested that making the information public could help the campaign, he said.

“This could be a good issue to expose how the DNC is accepting bad money,” Akhmetshin recalled her saying.

Trump Jr. asked the attorney if she had sufficient evidence to back up her claims, including whether she could demonstrate the flow of the money. But Veselnitskaya said the Trump campaign would need to research it more. After that, Trump Jr. lost interest, according to Akhmetshin.

“They couldn’t wait for the meeting to end,” he said.

Akhmetshin said he does not know if Veselnitskaya’s documents were provided by the Russian government. He said he thinks she left the materials with the Trump associates. It was unclear if she handed the documents to anyone in the room or simply left them behind, he said.
So to follow up on your previous question to Taco and HemiEd, did Trump Jr. turn around and use that information? I don't think it really matters, but since you asked, it seems like you could find your answer assuming this report is true.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:18 AM   #147
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So to follow up on your previous question to Taco and HemiEd, did Trump Jr. turn around and use that information? I don't think it really matters, but since you asked, it seems like you could find your answer assuming this report is true.
It's my opinion that by just agreeing to the meeting, Lyin' Junior was attempting collusion. If he took the information and used it? Collusion.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:24 AM   #148
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It's my opinion that by just agreeing to the meeting, Lyin' Junior was attempting collusion. If he took the information and used it? Collusion.
Did he? And so what? Do you agree that not all collusion is prohibited collusion (regardless of whether you think it's a good idea or the best practice)?
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:32 AM   #149
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Did he? And so what? Do you agree that not all collusion is prohibited collusion (regardless of whether you think it's a good idea or the best practice)?
Did he, as in attempted collusion, just by accepting the meeting? If so, yes, I believe he did.

So what? Well, we've heard nothing but "WITCH HUNT!" and "#fakenews #nothingburger" for months. This would seem to stop that nonsense, although I doubt it will. What I think, or anyone else outside Mueller or the FBI, doesn't really matter. Let them decide the "so what?"

I'm fine with "collusion" with the Russians if it's akin to cooperation in matters that serve the interests of the United States and her people.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:33 AM   #150
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Why does anyone believe there collusion was bungled?

The lawyer says she left information at Trump tower. I want to see copies of what she left.
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