Seattle's $15 minimum wage redux

[Eleazar]

tldr version below:

...

Seattle became the first city in the nation to implement the $15 per hour minimum wage this past spring. Fox News reports that one unintended effect is that workers who are earning the higher wage are asking for fewer hours, so they can remain eligible for low income government benefits like childcare and tax credits.

Full Life Care, a home nursing nonprofit, told KIRO-TV in Seattle that several workers want to work less.

Local radio talk show host Jason Rantz on KIRO-FM noted the irony: “If [employees] cut down their hours to stay on those subsidies because the $15 per hour minimum wage didn’t actually help get them out of poverty, all you’ve done is put a burden on the business and given false hope to a lot of people.”

“Despite a booming economy throughout western Washington, the state’s welfare caseload has dropped very little since the higher wage phase began in Seattle in April. In March 130,851 people were enrolled in the Basic Food program. In April, the caseload dropped to 130,376,” according to Fox News.

...

“Some restaurants have tacked on a 15 percent surcharge to cover the higher wages. And some managers are no longer encouraging customers to tip, leading to a redistribution of income. Workers in the back of the kitchen, such as dishwashers and cooks, are getting paid more, but servers who rely on tips are seeing a pay cut,” Fox News reported.

...

Earlier this year, as the implementation of the minimum wage law loomed, Seattle Magazine noted that something appeared to be afoot affecting the restaurant industry in the city, asking: “Why Are So Many Seattle Restaurants Closing Lately? “Seattle foodies [are] downcast,” the magazine reported

...

The magazine went on to report that one “major factor affecting restaurant futures in our city is the impending minimum wage hike.” Anthony Anton, president and CEO of the Washington Restaurant Association, told the magazine: “It’s not a political problem; it’s a math problem.” He estimates that restaurants usually have a budget breakdown of about 36 percent for labor, 30 percent for food costs, and 30 percent to cover other operational costs. That leaves 4 percent for a profit margin. When labor costs shoot up to, say 42 percent, something has to give.

Shah Burnham is just one Seattle restaurant owner who believes that keeping her doors open is no longer worth it. She owns a popular Z Pizza restaurant location and says that even though her one store only has 12 employees, she’s considered part of the Z Pizza franchise — a large business. So she has to give raises within the next two years. “Small businesses in the city have up to six more years to phase in the new $15 an hour minimum wage,” according to Seattle’s Fox News 13.

“I know that I would have stayed here if I had 7 years, just like everyone else, if I had an even playing field,” she says. “The discrimination I’m feeling right now against my small business makes me not want to stay and do anything in Seattle.”

...

The Heritage Foundation notes the minimum wage is usually for new workers, with a low percentage of Americans receiving it. The organization also points out some other interesting statistics:

Over half of minimum-wage earners are between the ages of 16 and 24.
Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers earn raises within a year—without the government’s help.
Only 2.9 percent of wage earners earn the federal minimum wage.
Most minimum-wage earners are teenagers or young adults, not heads of families.
Two-thirds work part time (defined as less than 35 hours a week).
Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers live in families with incomes above 150 percent of the poverty line.
Just 4 percent of minimum-wage workers are single parents working full time, compared to 5.6 percent of all U.S. workers.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/sea...ent=2015-08-04

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Fish

That's only way you present any kind or argument whatsoever. Not by looking at what is feasible and workable for both sides, but only looking at one extreme that isn't even being proposed and will never be proposed. That's why your argument is just retarded. Whatever solution the country decides on is not going to be "Taken to its extreme". Therefore proposing possible problems that are only apparent when the situation is taken to its extreme is completely irrelevant. It's what idiots do when they cannot argue properly. Don't be so dumb.

Lol You're funny. You sound like a mad scientist.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by Donger

Excellent. So, what's the downside to a minimum wage increase?

You should check out the CBO report.

They did a great job of covering all aspects of this debate.

And by check out, I mean actually read, not rely on some article cherry picking one bad thing while ignoring everything else.

Then you can check out the studies of any of the 22 times we have raised the minimum wage. Has our economy crashed yet?

“Now, you might argue that even if the current minimum wage seems low, raising it would cost jobs. But there’s evidence on that question — lots and lots of evidence, because the minimum wage is one of the most studied issues in all of economics. U.S. experience, it turns out, offers many ‘natural experiments’ here, in which one state raises its minimum wage while others do not. And while there are dissenters, as there always are, the great preponderance of the evidence from these natural experiments points to little if any negative effect of minimum wage increases on employment.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/op...wage.html?_r=1

Now, as suzzy has pointed out, any negative outcomes are always outweighed by the positive outcomes.

Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?
http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ge-2013-02.pdf

So, if you want to answer the question yourself, using the 22 different times the minimum wage was raised, feel free. Then I can respond.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by Donger

Beats me. But if they do other things, surely the other burger flippers could pick up the slack.

Yeah, see that's the thing, the cashiers often are also the burger flippers depending on what they needs of the day are. Just because technology replaces one aspect of a workers job doesn't mean there isn't a reason to have the worker anymore.

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

No matter how often I say "Federal Poverty line", they never listen.

At least the answer been given. Nobody in this thread can claim that it hasn't been answered.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

Blaise is a known lair.

He takes how the federal poverty line is measured (afford food/housing) and turns into everything under the sun.

It's a persistent symptom of his nagging case of butthurt.

You didn't say that? You didn't say that a 40 hour a week job for a single mother and two children with no child support sould be able to pay all of her bills without government assistance?

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

You should check out the CBO report.

They did a great job of covering all aspects of this debate.

And by check out, I mean actually read, not rely on some article cherry picking one bad thing while ignoring everything else.

Then you can check out the studies of any of the 22 times we have raised the minimum wage. Has our economy crashed yet?



http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/op...wage.html?_r=1

Now, as suzzy has pointed out, any negative outcomes are always outweighed by the positive outcomes.

Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?
http://www.cepr.net/documents/public...ge-2013-02.pdf

So, if you want to answer the question yourself, using the 22 different times the minimum wage was raised, feel free. Then I can respond.

Here come the tldr cut and pastes by lone using far left sources.

CEPR is defined as progressive and left-leaning. Not the kinda folks you want for an unbiased study.

That and the NYTs plus a crackpot leftist named Krugman.

Seriously!

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by blaise

You didn't say that? You didn't say that a 40 hour a week job for a single mother and two children with no child support sould be able to pay all of her bills without government assistance?

No. I didn't. Liar.

Stop confusing the metrics that the federal poverty line use and lying about it to contain "all her bills."

[Saul Good]

Originally Posted by Donger

Beats me. But if they do other things, surely the other burger flippers could pick up the slack.

Why are these businesses so inefficient today that their employees could be doing more than they currently are? It seems like a more efficient competitor would eat them alive.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

You'll notice that they lie a lot about what I "say".

It's makes it easier for them since they can't actually refute the economic reasoning.

You said that the $15 minimum wage would cause no inflation and no upward move in wages, did you not?

This is why you and I went around and around - because I said a fast food worker would make the same as an entry level college graduate and your reply was basically, "So what? Why do you care?"

And your evidence to show that there would be no negative impact was that there wasn't evidence that it would.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

Here come the tldr cut and pastes by lone using far left sources.

CEPR is defined as progressive and left-leaning. Not the kinda folks you want for an unbiased study.

That and the NYTs plus a crackpot leftist named Krugman.

Seriously!

Like I said earlier. They either lie about and attack me, or attack the sources because they can never offer their own economic arguments.

[Cave Johnson]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

Yeah, see that's the thing, the cashiers often are also the burger flippers depending on what they needs of the day are. Just because technology replaces one aspect of a workers job doesn't mean there isn't a reason to have the worker anymore.

Or another job created by increased consumer spending from low wage workers.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by suzzer99

I'm honestly shocked blaise ever posted that much content. I started ignoring him a long time ago after his 2000th post like:

"I am so stupid and I like stupid things."

/Loneiguana

This would be valid if he hadn't said what I posted. But he did.

I asked him probably a dozen times what rate would keep a single mother with two kids off of government assistance and he refused to answer.

But he most certainly put forth that standard.

[blaise]

Originally Posted by Loneiguana

Like I said earlier. They either lie about and attack me, or attack the sources because they can never offer their own economic arguments.

When you get caught in an argument you have no answer to you normally start flooding the thread with material that isn't relevant to the point being argued and going into histrionics.

Then inevitably comes emoticons and "you're a dumbass," etc.

That's why you're a spaz. As the thread goes on the word count in your posts skyrockets and the hissy fit escalates.

[Loneiguana]

Originally Posted by blaise

You said that the $15 minimum wage would cause no inflation and no upward move in wages, did you not?

No, I said the minimum wage wouldn't push prices past consumer tolerance.

Yes, I know. You can't understand that sentence, hence your confusion.

Originally Posted by blaise

This is why you and I went around and around - because I said a fast food worker would make the same as an entry level college graduate and your reply was basically, "So what? Why do you care?"

And your evidence to show that there would be no negative impact was that there wasn't evidence that it would.

Yes, why do you care if someone else is making a living wage? And we have raised minimum wage 22 times. Surely it shouldn't be hard to find all these negative things.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Cave Johnson

Or another job created by increased consumer spending from low wage workers.

Only survival things, not most other things the economy has to offer. They're not likely to buy homes even on that raised min wage either. Especially with inflation, where they only move up any ladder in the same position they were in previously to a pay raise.