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Old 01-11-2017, 09:23 AM  
petegz28 petegz28 is offline
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John McCain: Schmuck Supreme

Sworn Donald Trump enemy John McCain admitted Wednesday that he passed the dossier of claims of a Russian blackmail plot against the president-elect.
The Arizona senator issued a public statement amid mounting questions of his exact role in the affair - and how a document riddled with errors and unverifiable claims came to be published.
'Late last year, I received sensitive information that has since been made public,' he said.
'Upon examination of the contents, and unable to make a judgment about their accuracy, I delivered the information to the Director of the FBI.
'That has been the extent of my contact with the FBI or any other government agency regarding this issue.'
But the 2008 Republican loser, who disowned his party's candidate weeks before the election, may have been far more intimately involved than that.

The chain of how the document reached the FBI is not officially known.
However Carl Bernstein, the Watergate reporter who contributed to the first story about its existence, published by CNN on Tuesday afternoon, suggested that McCain was handed it by a former British ambassador to Moscow.
Bernstein told CNN: 'It came from a former British MI6 agent who was hired from a political opposition research firm in Washington who was doing work about Donald Trump for both republican and democratic candidates opposed to Trump.
'They were looking at Trumps business ties, they saw some questionable things about Russians, about his businesses in Russia, they in turn hired this MI6 former investigator, he then came up with additional information from his Russian sources, he was very concerned by the implications of it, he then took it to an FBI colleague that he had known in his undercover work for years, he took it to this FBI man in Rome who turned it over to the bureau in Washington in August.
'And then, a former British ambassador to Russia independently was made aware of these findings and he took the information to John McCain – Senator John McCain of Arizona – in the period just after the election, and showed it to McCain – additional findings.
'McCain was sufficiently disturbed by what he read to take it to FBI director James Comey himself personally, they had a five minute meeting the two men, very little was said, McCain turned it over to him and is now awaiting what the FBI’s response is to that information.'
The identity of the former British ambassador has not been disclosed.
Only one former British ambassador to Washington remains in UK government service, Sir Tim Barrow, who went on to be Foreign Office political director and is now Britain's ambassador to the European Union.
McCain's long-standing opposition to Trump is well known although he only formally ended support for the Republican candidate in October, when the notorious 'p****' tape emerged.

The Arizona senator said at the time: '"Donald Trump’s behavior... concluding with the disclosure of his demeaning comments about women and his boasts about sexual assaults, make it impossible to continue to offer even conditional support for his candidacy.'
US intelligence agencies have claimed that Russian spies hacked the Democratic National Committee and leaked damaging emails designed to undermine Hillary Clinton's campaign for president.


The new information, which has not been independently verified, claims that Russian officials also gathered highly damaging information on Trump, but only released the details attacking Clinton through the WikiLeaks website.
The Kremlin has denied all of the allegations, while Trump tweeted: 'FAKE NEWS - A TOTAL POLITICAL WITCH HUNT'.

However, McCain was so concerned about the information contained within the 35-page dossier, which included allegations that Trump had hired prostitutes in Moscow to urinate on a bed that had previously been used by US President Barack Obama and his wife Michelle, that he passed the information onto the FBI
CNN reported that intelligence chiefs had presented Trump with a two-page summary of the dossier late last week following a briefing with President Obama.
It is not known if it included the most salacious details.
Trump has consistently denied that Russian intelligence agencies had launched a massive cyber attack ahead of last November's election.
The dossier which McCain passed to FBI Director James Comey was compiled by the former MI6 man.
The memos describe sex videos involving prostitutes filmed during a 2013 visit by Trump to a luxury Moscow hotel, supposedly as a potential means for blackmail.
They also suggest Russian officials proposed lucrative deals in order to win influence over the Republican real estate magnate.
One claim, that special counsel to Trump Michael Cohen met with Kremlin officials in Prague in August 2016 has been branded as 'fake news'.
Cohen denied that he was central 'to the ongoing secret liaison relationship between the New York tycoon's campaign and the Russian leadership'.
Cohen tweeted a photograph of his passport and said he had never visited Prague.
According to reports, the former MI6 man had been hired to conduct 'opposition research' on the Trump campaign by first Republican enemies of Trump, then Democratic ones.
Russia denied the claims, with President Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov telling journalists: 'The Kremlin does not have compromising information on Trump.'
The Kremlin spokesman called the dossier a 'total fake' and 'an obvious attempt to harm our bilateral relations'.
Earlier, the Kremlin had denied hacking the Democratic National Committee and leaking information to deliberately weaken Hillary Clinton's campaign.
Donald Trump's transition team has repeatedly denied allegations that it had received any help from Moscow.


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Old 01-12-2017, 11:56 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post
Winner-take-all, by definition, is often NOT about majority rule; it's why many local, and some state elections, hold run-off elections. If you don't accept majority rule as a central principle of democracy....fine. Many of the rest of us do.
Doesn't matter we have the electoral college as law. Are you for breaking this law?
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Old 01-12-2017, 11:56 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Just Passin' By View Post
...

I hope that helps you figure out why your initial post was so ridiculous.


Our breakdown in communication seems to be your refusal to see how front-loading of winner-take-all primaries undermines the important democratic principle of majority rule. Fine; you don't think they do; I do. We'll have to agree to disagree.

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Doesn't matter we have the electoral college as law. Are you for breaking this law?
Not at all; I accept the EC as a given. As I've said though...my point is, personally, I find front-loading winner-take-all primaries are more of a corruption of democratic principles than the democrat's super delegate process and arcane delegate allocation rules.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:00 PM
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:02 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter View Post


Our breakdown in communication seems to be your refusal to see how front-loading of winner-take-all primaries undermines the important democratic principle of majority rule. Fine; you don't think they do; I do. We'll have to agree to disagree.
No, the breakdown in communication is your inability to understand what "Democracy" means. Don't try sloughing this off on me. You have an argument that the Primary system sucks. You don't have an argument that front loading and/or winner-takes-all is not Democratic.

Having the super delegates adds a dash of oligarchy to the stew, but that's not what you were talking about.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:04 PM   #214
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I still think there's a whiff of you being led around by the nose, even in this limited specific instance, perhaps as an integral part of it.

You seem to be downplaying the importance of corruption [substituting henceforth for corruption and incompetence for brevity] because Hillary lost, which is a bit of chicken/egg, because we don't know the level to which exposure/evidence solidified the case FOR her corruption.

And people, not just you, are still pussy-footing around the exact gripe/allegation/charge of interference here. Russian interference in elections is an ominous charge, much like 'radicalized Islam' or 'homegrown terrorism.' Yet you insist on specificity in the case against Hillary [which you admit is moot] to weigh against the spectre of interference, which it seems you're blithe to leave vague, intoning anything from the publication of persuasive factual information to outright rigging and outcome alteration.

This is an odd tact, as I would hope you realize that none of this would even be discussed, let alone passionately pleaded, had Hillary won.
I don't think Russian interference is as vague as you seem to. There seems to be a pretty solid consensus around the idea that they stole private information from various democrats and then published it via wikileaks and dcleaks. There's no allegation that the votes counted weren't the votes cast. We can never know if the outcome was altered, IMO.

That's the state of our knowledge, such that it is, of the Russian attack. We may not have a 500 page report detailing all the ins and outs, but it's enough to compare to what we know about Hillary's malfeasance via wikileaks. I've already done the comparison, but I was inviting you to add new information that I might have missed. So far, I don't think I've missed anything significant enough to change my mind.

I think Russian interference would have been a hot topic if Hillary had won.

I don't know what you mean by a "whiff of ... being led around by the nose", but just so you know (in case you have trouble seeing these things in yourself) it seems to be unnecessarily (as as far as I can tell, unjustifiably) condescending.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:05 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Fairplay View Post
And if the russians were involved then what?
It's time to drop the "if". Even Trump admits that it was "probably the Russians" now.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:08 PM   #216
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I don't think Russian interference is as vague as you seem to. There seems to be a pretty solid consensus around the idea that they stole private information from various democrats and then published it via wikileaks and dcleaks. There's no allegation that the votes counted weren't the votes cast. We can never know if the outcome was altered, IMO.

That's the state of our knowledge, such that it is, of the Russian attack. We may not have a 500 page report detailing all the ins and outs, but it's enough to compare to what we know about Hillary's malfeasance via wikileaks. I've already done the comparison, but I was inviting you to add new information that I might have missed. So far, I don't think I've missed anything significant enough to change my mind.

I think Russian interference would have been a hot topic if Hillary had won.

I don't know what you mean by a "whiff of ... being led around by the nose", but just so you know (in case you have trouble seeing these things in yourself) it seems to be unnecessarily (as as far as I can tell, unjustifiably) condescending.
No snark, is it accurate to summarize that

you feel that the hacking and publication of unaltered private information about public figures by a foreign interest is more important than the actual corruption by potential leaders as evidenced by said publication
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:10 PM   #217
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What is interesting is the Chinese hacked into thousands and thousand of goverment Intel yet this president and patteeu never mention this or talk about punishment for those crimes.
That's not really that interesting.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:10 PM   #218
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No snark, is it accurate to summarize that

you feel that the hacking and publication of unaltered private information about public figures by a foreign interest is more important than the actual corruption by potential leaders as evidenced by said publication
It depends on the specifics. In most cases including this one based on what I know of the revelations and also based on what I know of the election outcome, yes. If you had asked me this before the election, it would have been a more difficult question to answer and I'd have to work hard to divorce myself from my strong partisan opposition to Hillary.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:12 PM   #219
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I don't know what you mean by a "whiff of ... being led around by the nose", but just so you know (in case you have trouble seeing these things in yourself) it seems to be unnecessarily (as as far as I can tell, unjustifiably) condescending.
I mean by it that your insistence on eschewing the prioritization of principles in favor of weighing current [vaguely established and murky] specifics suggests your conclusions are driven more by current media passion than independent analysis.

Is there a less condescending way for me to address my concern?
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:14 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by patteeu View Post
That's not really that interesting.
Of course it isn't. Doesn't suit your agenda.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:15 PM   #221
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It depends on the specifics. In most cases including this one based on what I know of the revelations and also based on what I know of the election outcome, yes. If you had asked me this before the election, it would have been a more difficult question to answer and I'd have to work hard to divorce myself from my strong partisan opposition to Hillary.
But see, I don't know what revelations you accept and which you reject, which is why I try to hew back to principles instead of emotional hypotheticals.

You admit that your relief at the outcome has clouded your judgment, yet you accuse me of having my own judgment clouded by Hillary hate knowing full well, or perhaps not, that Hillary hate itself is a loaded phrase.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:17 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Baby Lee View Post
I mean by it that your insistence on eschewing the prioritization of principles in favor of weighing current [vaguely established and murky] specifics suggests your conclusions are driven more by current media passion than independent analysis.

Is there a less condescending way for me to address my concern?
Your explanation is adequate.

I don't know how you can have a one-size fits all principle on this at the level of generic malfeasance vs generic cyber/info attack. The principle would have to take into account the degree of malfeasance and the potential to change the election (or undermine confidence in it) of the attack.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:18 PM   #223
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Your explanation is adequate.

I don't know how you can have a one-size fits all principle on this at the level of generic malfeasance vs generic cyber/info attack. The principle would have to take into account the degree of malfeasance and the potential to change the election (or undermine confidence in it) of the attack.
I'm not the one who proclaimed one.

hence my quest for clarification.

A subordinate point, also, was that you seemed to be prioritizing attempts at persuasion [even if by outside interests] over actual malfeasance.

People have the capacity to disregard propaganda. They don't have the capacity to make the corrupt or incompetent better leaders.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:27 PM   #224
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But see, I don't know what revelations you accept and which you reject, which is why I try to hew back to principles instead of emotional hypotheticals.
You don't need to know those things. All you had to do was point to what you think is the most egregious malfeasance exposed. If that isn't enough to change my analysis, then it's likely that none of the other examples you could give would.

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You admit that your relief at the outcome has clouded your judgment, yet you accuse me of having my own judgment clouded by Hillary hate knowing full well, or perhaps not, that Hillary hate itself is a loaded phrase.
No, that's not an admission that my relief has clouded my judgment. If anything, it's an admission that my judgment would have been more likely to be clouded if I were assessing this when the election outcome was still unknown when I'd have to weigh the bad of Hillary being elected with the bad of Russian interference. In any event, the Russian interference would have been a big deal to me.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:28 PM   #225
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It's time to drop the "if". Even Trump admits that it was "probably the Russians" now.
Probably, and said other actors are in play too if you finish his quote. He didn't admit anything.
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