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Old 11-13-2012, 10:45 PM  
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Offense/Defense (Philosophy based)

We've done several "If you were the GM/HC etc." threads here. However, I'm curious to see what kind of base offensive or defensive philosophies you would choose to try and design the Chiefs with. I know a majority will and should chose to utilize a 1-ga principle defensively but am curious as to the other aspects.

Personally, I would hire coaches to install a 1-gap Phillips based 3-4. While I love the fire-zone philosophies, I think that they require even more athletic players than we have currently to run at an elite level constantly and would prefer man-coverage rather than zone on downs/scenarios that dictate a pass. In the future, I would love to be able to incorporate these concepts once personnel has been adjusted accordingly.

Offensively, it would depend on the QB we draft. If Barkley, I'm hiring an OC who is based in the WCO and a HC that understands (generally) those philosophies, even if it is a defensive minded coach. Additionally, I would want him to emphasize YAC and back shoulder throws consistently.

If Smith or Wilson, I would likely hire someone who continues with a zone-based blocking system (as I feel it fits our smaller, athletic OL better and our backs in Charles/Cyrus better in a 1-cut philosophy). The OC would also utilize PA consistently (via bootlegs off of our stretch play) and would encourage a deeper approach in terms of route concepts, specifically attacking the seams off of motion with our WRs/TEs and and the corners of the field (corners/deep outs, back shoulder throws).


I'm curious to see what you all would like to have as there are several talented minds here, IMO.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:02 PM   #61
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What it all comes down to is...our D-line SUCKS, for having, what, 3 1st round picks and a 3rd?? it's woeful.
Nail, meet hammer.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:03 PM   #62
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He had Kennison and Morton for 2 years and fielded a top 5 offense.

That alone is amazing.

He took what he had and made something of it.

You always heard how big an azzhole he was but nothing other than that.

Haley was a spittle spewing tirade monster and dreams of having the output Saunders managed...
Not only top 5, they were #1 in the league in points scored in 2002, 2003...#2 in 2004, and #6 in 2005. We were also top 5 in the league during his tenure in time of possession. And our defense still sucked.

I don't remember ever hearing that Saunders was an asshole. In fact, I always heard he was one of the nicest people on the staff. I could be wrong though.

He didn't do well in Washington. He was fired after two years but was saddled with Jason Campbell.

If he were allowed to draft who he wanted, and spend on FA, I bet we'd have a top 10 offense by 2015. But I'd want a HC in here who would focus on defense too. Vermeil put too much emphasis on offense. Though, we didn't ask much of our defense. Only, "don't give up 30 points per game".
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:07 PM   #63
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hate the 3-4? All variants? That's weird. That's like saying, "I hate the 4-3".

Huh?

If you mean, I hate the read-and-react 2-gap 3-4, then I get you, and I feel the same way.

I like the one gap, ****-you-here-we-come-just-try-and-stop-us 3-4. Blow up the line of scrimmage and make plays in the backfield, disrupt blocking schemes, stunts and blitzes from anywhere at any time.

The one key to any 3-4 is having a true NT, which might be the rarest beast of all, but it appears we've finally got one so I say we stick with the 3-4.
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:50 PM   #64
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Good analysis driving wheel. I agree about the talent problem. So many people think that a coach, gm, and qb will fix everything and all of our problems will magically go away. That really isn't the case. We are along way off imo. We are about to be rebuilding. Not as much as last time but, it's going to happen imo.

As for the offense. The offense you want to run is a longshot imo. You practically have to have a bad ass HOF QB to run it. Also, our o-line has already gotten two QBs killed this year. Imagine what it would be like if we ran 5 WR sets?

I am not against this type of offense but, it requires having a ton of talent on that side of the ball on the o-line, WR position, and especially the QB.

I think that is why it's so rare.

I think success will come the fastest if we keep things as simple as possible.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:04 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Chris Meck View Post
hate the 3-4? All variants? That's weird. That's like saying, "I hate the 4-3".

Huh?

If you mean, I hate the read-and-react 2-gap 3-4, then I get you, and I feel the same way.

I like the one gap, ****-you-here-we-come-just-try-and-stop-us 3-4. Blow up the line of scrimmage and make plays in the backfield, disrupt blocking schemes, stunts and blitzes from anywhere at any time.

The one key to any 3-4 is having a true NT, which might be the rarest beast of all, but it appears we've finally got one so I say we stick with the 3-4.
I can agree with the sentiment but its so hard to find a true NT anymore. If I had to chose a 3-4 it would be Wade Phillips version which is closer to a 5-2 anyway, and started as a group of players built for the tampa-2
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:07 PM   #66
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This.

Saunders' version was about as complete as I've seen an offense. You don't see what he did at all in the NFL anymore. All the pre-snap motions and shifts really revealed what the defense was doing and they were able to exploit it.

They'd line Hall, Gonzalez, and Kennison up in the backfield, then have Priest in the slot. Then, they'd shift and you'd see exactly who was covering who, what kind of defense they were running, etc. I loved watching the pre-snap as much as the offense itself because it forced the defense to reveal their intentions (for the most part).

Biggest drawbacks I saw were that with all the motions and formation shifts, it used up nearly all of the playclock. And we used a lot of unnecessary timeouts because of it. Also, the play that was called was the play that was ran. There were multiple reads in this offense, but there was no audible allowed.

It really demonstrated how smart Trent Green was. Rarely did we run a play and wait for someone to get open. We'd throw a pass into a spot where the receiver was supposed to be. Early on, that resulted in lots o' interceptions. But in time, it worked great because it allowed the receivers to adjust their patterns on the fly and Green was in such harmony with everyone on the offense that it worked out very well.

I loved our run blocking scheme too. All the pulls we did to the left were great. Fortunately, we had arguably the best offensive line in the league which allowed that. Holmes was great, but the line did all the heavy lifting.

I'd take Saunders back in a heartbeat. Give him 2 years to implement the system, trade/FA/draft accordingly, and I bet he'd have this offense on a roll by year two.
Those Al Saunders/Trent Green offenses were artistic masterpieces, as perfect and assured as a Monet or a ****ing Rembrandt.

Roaf, Shields. Weigman, Roaf, and Tait, kicking out on the screen as Trent baits the defenders just long enough for Preist to fake a block and slip behind the big guys, then Trent flips the ball over to him perfectly...

*sigh* They made every screen beautiful, every sweep, every toss. Power 90 O ISO was perfect...every single time.

Those pre-snap motions and adjustments would give Belichick and the Ryans FITS, because it would reveal the defense's true intentions - it took away what is really the defense's biggest advantage.

We lost 1 fumble in 2003, iirc...one. One fumble lost. Or maybe it was one fumble TOTAL and NONE lost..

Point is, it was explosive AND ball control...conservative AND aggressive. We could control the clock and run the ball, OR run a fast-break down the field to score quick. We used the ENTIRE field, always. Outside, the seam, the flats - nothing was off limits.

That was a GREAT offense...but we had the players to pull it off. We had the QB...
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:10 PM   #67
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I can agree with the sentiment but its so hard to find a true NT anymore. If I had to chose a 3-4 it would be Wade Phillips version which is closer to a 5-2 anyway, and started as a group of players built for the tampa-2
I hear you. What is funny is that we looked for a real NT for years and this year there will be one that will probably go in the top #15. John Jenkins from UGA is 6'3" 351 lbs. and has played NT in the 3-4 his entire college career.

I think he is the best experienced true 3-4 NT prospect ever.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:17 PM   #68
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I can agree with the sentiment but its so hard to find a true NT anymore. If I had to chose a 3-4 it would be Wade Phillips version which is closer to a 5-2 anyway, and started as a group of players built for the tampa-2
that's a classic 1-gap 3-4 - it's the Bum Phillips defense.

See, really there are 3 basic variants :

zone blitz - Dick LeBeau, Vic Fangio, Dom Capers, etc.

2-gap - Romeo, Mangini, Belichick

1-gap - Bum/Wade Phillips, Parcells (late career; used a 4-3 for a time in NE, as well, iirc)

We simply don't have the horses for the 2 gap - we don't have the D-line nor secondary depth. Or the LB depth.

Same goes for the Zone Blitz.

The best chance for this team to compete is to play more a more 'standard' 1-gap; less exotic bs, and let the young cats go play. They're blowing coverages and plain getting beat because they simply can't cover the zone. Period. Elam, Lewis, Brown, Daniels, Arenas...all liabilities in zone coverage. Best to turn the guys up front loose, because otherwise, opposing QBs can just pick those zones apart. Not to mention, our 3 best pass rushers (Hali, Houston, DJ) are constantly in zone coverage, along with one of our best run defenders (Berry, who is probably better suited for a pure SS role instead of the Polamalu-type tweener thing they've been trying to make him do this year.)

EDIT : that being said, Shaun Smith played some great textbook 2-gap technique on Monday night, and that has been missing from the D-line, probably since he's been gone. Another classic case of Piloi being a dipshit for not listening to his coaches.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:24 PM   #69
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that's a classic 1-gap 3-4 - it's the Bum Phillips defense.

See, really there are 3 basic variants :

zone blitz - Dick LeBeau, Vic Fangio, Dom Capers, etc.

2-gap - Romeo, Mangini, Belichick

1-gap - Bum/Wade Phillips, Parcells (late career; used a 4-3 for a time in NE, as well, iirc)

We simply don't have the horses for the 2 gap - we don't have the D-line nor secondary depth. Or the LB depth.

Same goes for the Zone Blitz.

The best chance for this team to compete is to play more a more 'standard' 1-gap; less exotic bs, and let the young cats go play. They're blowing coverages and plain getting beat because they simply can't cover the zone. Period. Elam, Lewis, Brown, Daniels, Arenas...all liabilities in zone coverage. Best to turn the guys up front loose, because otherwise, opposing QBs can just pick those zones apart. Not to mention, our 3 best pass rushers (Hali, Houston, DJ) are constantly in zone coverage, along with one of our best run defenders (Berry, who is probably better suited for a pure SS role instead of the Polamalu-type tweener thing they've been trying to make him do this year.)

I can see that especially with a 4-3 over or under front having a linebacker sitting on the line of scrimmage acting essentially as another lineman. I started paying attention in the golden age of the Tampa-2 defense and so prefer that over others but only when played with the same aggressiveness that Monte used.

IMO to many teams took the play and not the understanding of why it worked. Being physical at the line of scrimmage with receivers to change the timing of the passing plays. It had its weaknesses but they blitzed more often than those who took the defense with them ala Herm
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:35 PM   #70
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That was a GREAT offense...but we had the players to pull it off. We had the QB...
This is the crux of it all. If you look at the other places Saunders has tried to implement a similar system, it never worked out that well because of the QB or because he wasn't there long enough. Jason Campbell in Washington, Carson Palmer in Oakland. He's been neutered with time or the wrong QB. Hell, he only got one season in St. Louis. I'd kill to have Saunders here with Sam Bradford.

His best season was when he was a consultant for the Ravens. IIRC, Cam Cameron just got there.

I don't know why he doesn't really get a fair shake. Maybe it's because his system is too complex, takes too much time to implement and no team wants to wait 2-3 years for it to get up and running. Maybe he's an ass and doesn't interview well. I don't know. He's been fired or demoted at every job he's had since the Chiefs. Something's not right.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:36 PM   #71
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I can see that especially with a 4-3 over or under front having a linebacker sitting on the line of scrimmage acting essentially as another lineman. I started paying attention in the golden age of the Tampa-2 defense and so prefer that over others but only when played with the same aggressiveness that Monte used.

IMO to many teams took the play and not the understanding of why it worked. Being physical at the line of scrimmage with receivers to change the timing of the passing plays. It had its weaknesses but they blitzed more often than those who took the defense with them ala Herm
the reason that defense worked so well in Tampa was because they had a D-line that had : Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Regan Upshow, Chris Hovan, et al, Derrick Brooks at LB, John Lynch at SS and Ronde Barber at CB.

With those guys, they got pressure with 4 man fronts so they didn't HAVE to blitz, which made it that much more effective when they did.

We have a poor man's Derrick Brooks in DJ, and a decent Ronde impersonator in Flowers...but are TOTALLY not equipped to do a 4-3 Tampa - we weren't when we were running one.

This team is defensively a 3-4 team, literally for better or for worse. If we lined up with 4 DL, we'd get eaten alive.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:39 PM   #72
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This is the crux of it all. If you look at the other places Saunders has tried to implement a similar system, it never worked out that well because of the QB or because he wasn't there long enough. Jason Campbell in Washington, Carson Palmer in Oakland. He's been neutered with time or the wrong QB. Hell, he only got one season in St. Louis. I'd kill to have Saunders here with Sam Bradford.

His best season was when he was a consultant for the Ravens. IIRC, Cam Cameron just got there.

I don't know why he doesn't really get a fair shake. Maybe it's because his system is too complex, takes too much time to implement and no team wants to wait 2-3 years for it to get up and running. Maybe he's an ass and doesn't interview well. I don't know. He's been fired or demoted at every job he's had since the Chiefs. Something's not right.
I've some things about him, about why he got passed over for the HC job in favor of Herm...about why he hasn't been able to keep a job with anyone not named Marty or Herm...and about why he will never be a HC in the NFL (and this was 6 years ago)
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:40 PM   #73
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Not sure where your coming up with some of this stuff, but the line is definitely allowed to attack. Whether they have 1 gap responsibility or 2, you shed the block and make a play. Where the 2 gap system shines, is if your line is successful at reading the play, shedding and making plays, they then require a double team from the o-line. Not sure where this whole 'soak up blockers' mentality is coming from. There not going to get double teamed if it isnt needed.
disagree

the main weapon of a DLineman is getting a good first step and in a 2-gap system that is neutralized because a 3-4 Dlineman HAS to engage the Olinemand first to protect the linebackers.

A 3-4,2-gap Dlineman is regulated to relying on handfighting,leverage and power to attack and that's only after stopping the Oline's momentum and reading the play.

How 3-4, 2-gaps guys are graded is by how few Olineman they allow through to the second level. Completely different skills used.

shedding to attacks is way harder than penetration to attack

it's also makes the blocking assignments for the Oline easier because the Olineman don't have to worry about quick feet ... just leverage,hands and power. Normally that blocking ease is supposed to be offset by zone blitzes but when you have a DC that doesn't like to blitz ...
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:41 PM   #74
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the reason that defense worked so well in Tampa was because they had a D-line that had : Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Regan Upshow, Chris Hovan, et al, Derrick Brooks at LB, John Lynch at SS and Ronde Barber at CB.

With those guys, they got pressure with 4 man fronts so they didn't HAVE to blitz, which made it that much more effective when they did.

We have a poor man's Derrick Brooks in DJ, and a decent Ronde impersonator in Flowers...but are TOTALLY not equipped to do a 4-3 Tampa - we weren't when we were running one.

This team is defensively a 3-4 team, literally for better or for worse. If we lined up with 4 DL, we'd get eaten alive.
I understand that, personal and scheme go hand in hand. If the jets ran that scheme we would have portions of the line needed with Coples and Wilkerson but the linebacking core is to slow to stop the deep area between the safeties and the outside flat areas. Teams could go outside on us all game.

The OP was moving forward and IMO your d-line isn't really built to handle either scheme. A pure 1-gap requires attacking style d-lineman which Pioli has gone out of his way to avoid. The linebacking core is nearly there though so yeah your right.

Edit. Just saw the part about when you were running the defense also. I don't think Herm really understood how to teach it or make it work from anything other than a corners point of view because when he ran the same defense with the Jets it wasn't very good either
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:50 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Driving Wheel View Post
the reason that defense worked so well in Tampa was because they had a D-line that had : Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Regan Upshow, Chris Hovan, et al, Derrick Brooks at LB, John Lynch at SS and Ronde Barber at CB.

With those guys, they got pressure with 4 man fronts so they didn't HAVE to blitz, which made it that much more effective when they did.

We have a poor man's Derrick Brooks in DJ, and a decent Ronde impersonator in Flowers...but are TOTALLY not equipped to do a 4-3 Tampa - we weren't when we were running one.

This team is defensively a 3-4 team, literally for better or for worse. If we lined up with 4 DL, we'd get eaten alive.
I don't know about that

Hali,Poe,Powe,Houston

Derrick Johnson at MLB

sort of like the Baltimore Ravens D ... 2 big,fat guys to stuff the run and protect the MLB. Hali and Houston going after the Passer.

Not sure Belcher would have a place but adding to 2 Linebackers in one offseason is not that difficult to do.

Berry playing an in-the-box safety

Kendrick Lewis is still not good enough, so we need a complete free safety imo.
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