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Old 06-22-2011, 12:02 PM  
Deberg_1990 Deberg_1990 is offline
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How do you feel about Derek Jeter?
6 hits away from 3000.......

Underrated? Overrated? Rated just about right?
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Old 09-26-2014, 04:44 AM   #136
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What position do you feel he was better suited for?
I'm not sure why people are calling him a terrible defensive shortstop. He was adequate. Wasn't a liability, was definitely not a playmaker. Didn't make many mistakes but didn't have the kind of range elite shortstops have. He was solid but unspectacular.

Most defensive stats are badly skewed because Jeter played shortstop WAY longer than most shortstops should. He should have been moved to second base by the time he was 33.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:22 AM   #137
Deberg_1990 Deberg_1990 is offline
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Put Jeter on the Royals from 94 to 2014 and he still has a great career but goes out with a whimper. Circumstance plays into his career a ton
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:25 AM   #138
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Put Jeter on the Royals from 94 to 2014 and he still has a great career but goes out with a whimper. Circumstance plays into his career a ton
On a different team, he ends up with 3000 hits and is a great clutch hitter, retires a few years ago, and ends his career at 2b. It would also be a shame because nobody would ever know how damn good he was in the postseason.
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Old 09-26-2014, 06:49 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Count Zarth View Post
A good, but completely over-hyped player simply due to playing in NY.

Basically Michael Young, but played on great teams instead of shit ones.
How many years is that based on? The same amount of seasons for each guy?
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:06 AM   #140
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How many years is that based on? The same amount of seasons for each guy?
Really important given that his defensive war massively dropped after he turned 33.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:08 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Really important given that his defensive war massively dropped after he turned 33.
Also given Cano played 2nd there was awhile, I'm not sure where you could have moved him to. 3rd?
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:10 AM   #142
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errr...is this even in doubt?

I think he's a great player and surefire HOFer and all that, but he's not in the same league as the greatest of the greats. Not even close.
I'd argue that in the past 50 years he's been the closest thing and when Jordan puts his stamp on your ass you are forever enshrined.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:15 AM   #143
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I'd argue that in the past 50 years he's been the closest thing and when Jordan puts his stamp on your ass you are forever enshrined.
At least 1 MVP would have helped that argument. He was a good player, but don't get carried away. If you are going to be the greatest in 50 years, it would be nice to be the greatest in the game in ate least 1 of those 50 years.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:19 AM   #144
ChiefRocka ChiefRocka is offline
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Originally Posted by BigCatDaddy View Post
At least 1 MVP would have helped that argument. He was a good player, but don't get carried away. If you are going to be the greatest in 50 years, it would be nice to be the greatest in the game in ate least 1 of those 50 years.
Can't disagree but I was speaking from strictly a Yankee perspective and the Rushmore comment.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:23 AM   #145
BigCatDaddy BigCatDaddy is offline
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Interesting stat. Number of years each short stop was over a 5.0 WAR player.

Cal Ripken 8
Barry Larkin 6
Ozzie Smith 6
Derek Jeter 5
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:28 AM   #146
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My thoughts on Jeter:

He was a great player, one of the top 5 shortstops of all time (Wagner in a tier by himself, Ripken, A-Rod, Larkin also in the mix). His ability to deliver in the postseason and clutch situations was outstanding, he was a difficult out, and he was a big piece of the Yankee mystique.

I think that, for as much of his career as his defense was overrated, the impact of how bad is defense was is now being significantly overrated.

Yes, he was about 9.5 WAR below replacement for his career (9.7 bWAR and 9.4 fWAR, respectively). But people seem to be forgetting that WAR is a counting stat. Jeter played 20 seasons, so that DWAR works out to about -0.5 for his career. Considering his offensive prowess, that's a liveable figure.

Jeter retiring is really strange for me. I was 11 when he debuted in the major leagues. He's the last really "great" player of my adolescent years (other than A-Rod), so this feels like the end of an era.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:43 AM   #147
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Also given Cano played 2nd there was awhile, I'm not sure where you could have moved him to. 3rd?
Cano actually started his career at short. Wonder if he could have played third.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:47 AM   #148
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My thoughts on Jeter:

He was a great player, one of the top 5 shortstops of all time (Wagner in a tier by himself, Ripken, A-Rod, Larkin also in the mix). His ability to deliver in the postseason and clutch situations was outstanding, he was a difficult out, and he was a big piece of the Yankee mystique.

I think that, for as much of his career as his defense was overrated, the impact of how bad is defense was is now being significantly overrated.

Yes, he was about 9.5 WAR below replacement for his career (9.7 bWAR and 9.4 fWAR, respectively). But people seem to be forgetting that WAR is a counting stat. Jeter played 20 seasons, so that DWAR works out to about -0.5 for his career. Considering his offensive prowess, that's a liveable figure.

Jeter retiring is really strange for me. I was 11 when he debuted in the major leagues. He's the last really "great" player of my adolescent years (other than A-Rod), so this feels like the end of an era.
The other problem with career war is that older shortstops are going to have worse wars. Shortstop play dramatically declines with age. Jeter has 7 years in his career where he was too old to be playing the position and it showed.

To jesters disadvantage, war also has a level of subjectivity. Jeter didn't have the range of most shortstops. So a lot of hits where Jeter was nowhere close to the ball may have been fielded by a very good shortstop. It's said that Jeter was excellent early in his career fielding the balls he got to. But fielding percentage doesn't account for ground balls that are slightly out of usual range.
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Old 09-26-2014, 07:51 AM   #149
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Have zero feelings for Jeter. Neither on or off the field...
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:15 AM   #150
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