Football How do we overcome the NFL's desire to neuter defense? - Page 3

Sweet Daddy Hate · 10-17-2018, 04:14 PM

It appears that the NFL would love nothing more than for all of us to regress to the mindset, expectations, and attention spans of the average 8 year-old on game day.
The average football youngster fan can tell you the names of his or her favorite QB's, Receivers, and even Running Backs( if said RB is an undeniable yardage monster ). Ask them about their favorite defensive players and you're just as likely to get a blank stare as you are a very short list of defensive superstars who are as well known for their commercials, endorsement deals, on-field antics, and off-field issues as they are for their play.
Now before you take me to task over that last comment, let me first say that I know and understand that there ARE parents out there who enjoy teaching their kids about the team, who is who, and what they bring to the overall effort on BOTH sides of the ball. Bless you good parents for doing so.
Had you asked me that question when I was a youngster, the best I could probably come up with was Mean Joe Green.

Offense is exciting, I get that. Deep passes for massive gains, insane catches between multiple defenders, running backs busting through lines, juking defenders at the 2nd level, and then screaming off to the end zone leaving DB's in their wake. It's great entertainment that anyone watching, regardless of their knowledge of the game, can enjoy and be a part of.

Defense is a little more tricky. Defense requires you to have some knowledge of the game to truly appreciate( or condemn )it. But once you do, there is no question whatsoever that it is far and away the most exciting phase of the game, especially if your squad is composed of 4 or more genuine all-stars.

In coming across this article today( https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...m_campaign=nfl ), I found it interesting in that the writer touched on some points that have been under discussion at CP for some time.
Namely, I found it both interesting and troubling that the writer points out a lack of defensive fundamentals( tackling etc.)not only with the Chiefs, but across the whole league.
It seems to me that these fundamentals have been sacrificed in the name of a new defensive game that relies more on speed, intelligence/scheme, and finesse. Tackling, a subject that we beat to death around here, is on it's way to becoming a very nuanced "shade of grey" that can result in lost yardage through penalty and close games lost on the whims of officials.

This is completely unacceptable. We spend so much time here joking about flying banners in an effort to effect change within our own organization when what we should be doing is creating a league-wide coalition of fans who are absolutely fed up with this bullshit, and who want OUR ****ing game returned to a state of balance where all three phases of the game have an unfettered opportunity to change the course of a game.

The technology, science, and sports nutrition exist to counter the effects of a reasonably executed defensive standard where tackling, sacks, and properly laid wood can live in symbiotic harmony with 40 year-old QB's and 40+ point games. This isn't an either/or situation.
I'm open to any ideas, no matter how far out they might seem. Create a "double roster" whereby starters can be rotated in and out of the game, either by rules or choice in an effort to keep the amount of playing time down for the individual and reduce potential long-term damage? Double the cap and let's roll. Allow the defense to hit hard under very defined guidelines and points of contact that if violated result in sitting that player out for a couple of defensive series, similar to hockey? That's certainly better than outright eliminating the very essence of defensive football.

I don't want to wake up one day to find a completely unrecognizable game playing on my television. The game is not so far gone that we couldn't put the brakes on and at least make an attempt to right the ship. And I know that CP is not the only site on the web frequented by fans of the game who are as sick and tired of this shit as we are.
If SOC can accomplish the change it sought, then there is no reason that a similar organization comprised of fans the whole league over could not create a voice to be heard and reckoned with in this matter. After all, it is ultimately in the hands of the fans whether or not the NFL gets ratings, can generate revenue through advertisement, sell merchandise, fill stadiums, and pay its overhead and salaries.

Sweet Daddy Hate · 10-17-2018, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

It's a shit product. Without Mahomes and company it would be virtually unwatchable

It's 1/2 of a ****ing game! I mean damn; if Mahomes and Dak just shredded "the best defense in the league"( or close to it ), that alone should tell you that something is definitely out of whack, Mahomes supernatural abilities aside of course.
As I sit here and recall the last great defense that the Chiefs fielded, I'm having a very hard time imagining Dak or Mahomes "shredding" that unit. Running desperately for their lives? Oh yes. "Shredding"? **** no. Not a chance.

It would be an interesting eye test of sorts to dial-up the 2014 Super Bowl and watch Seattle do their thing defensively. Take notes, and run a side by side with say, Chiefs vs 49ers 1997. Those are two games from the different eras in question in which the defense completely took over the game and inflicted maximum damage on their opponents. It would be interesting to observe the differences in playing style, schemes, physical contact, and penalties doled-out to each unit and their effect on the game.

stevieray · 10-17-2018, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

In all fairness, I should mention that Zombo got one hell of a block on the big return Sunday night. He did good on that play. Real good.

FAX

yup I saw that too! His block sprung that play..he engaged, and precisely timed his shove/block.

FAX · 10-17-2018, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevieray

yup I saw that too! His block sprung that play..he engaged, and precisely timed his shove/block.

Looked like an experienced pro out there on that deal.

FAX

Titty Meat · 10-17-2018, 08:21 PM

Find the next Khalil Mack

Sweet Daddy Hate · 10-17-2018, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

Sorry, Mr. O.city ... but that's simply incorrect. And I would ask you to reconsider that analysis.

We don't have the ingredients on the field to even know if the coaching is the problem. I can promise you that.

FAX

Ah, but Mr. Fax we DO have a two season record on the books where Sutton did in fact have an above average roster to work with. That known, we can study every aspect of the Chiefs defense under his tutelage, and come to a sound conclusion regarding his effectiveness as a defensive coordinator.

FloridaMan88 · 10-17-2018, 09:22 PM

The Ravens are finding a way... see their 11 sack/shutout performance against the same Tennessee offense that fisted Sutton’s defense in the second half of the playoff collapse last season.

kccrow · 10-17-2018, 09:41 PM

Aside from the bullshit penalty that is the QB sack nowadays, NFL defenses aren't really giving up yardage numbers that far away from what they put up the last several years. I think we need to recognize just how bad KC's defense is right now and not just assume the rest of the league is following suit.

If you look at league averages over the previous 5 years to in relation to now, there really isn't that much of a jump and the dispersion in the data sets of yards allowed by team is similar to the 2016 and 2015 seasons.

Here's some of the data, but you can easily look it all up on NFL.com

2018 24.2 pt/g 366.1 yd/g 5.7 yd/p
2017 21.7 pt/g 334.1 yd/g 5.3 yd/p
2016 22.8 pt/g 350.4 yd/g 5.5 yd/p
2015 22.8 pt/g 352.7 yd/g 5.5 yd/p
2014 22.6 pt/g 348.1 yd/g 5.4 yd/p
2013 23.4 pt/g 348.5 yd/g 5.4 yd/p

Top Team by year (to date)
2018 BAL 12.8 pt/g 270.8 yd/g 4.4 yd/p
2017 MIN 15.8 pt/g 275.9 yd/g 4.6 yd/p
2016 HOU 20.5 pt/g 301.3 yd/g 5.1 yd/p
2015 DEN 18.5 pt/g 283.1 yd/g 4.4 yd/p
2014 SEA 15.9 pt/g 267.1 yd/g 4.6 yd/p
2013 SEA 14.4 pt/g 273.6 yd/g 4.4 yd/p

Then you have this...
2018 Chiefs 28.7 pt//g 468.2 yd/g 6.6 yd/p

The NFL isn't atrocious at defense, the Kansas City Chiefs are.

Hoover · 10-17-2018, 09:43 PM

1. Stop giving defensive players HUGE second contacts.
2. Always draft defensive playmakers.
3. Focus on stopping shot plays like runs, screen passes, and TEs.
4. Set appropriate expectations-there is no such thing as a shut down defense unless you are playing someone with a shit QB
5 Draft a franchise altering QB in the draft!

carcosa · 10-17-2018, 09:46 PM

penus

htismaqe · 10-17-2018, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kccrow

Aside from the bullshit penalty that is the QB sack nowadays, NFL defenses aren't really giving up yardage numbers that far away from what they put up the last several years. I think we need to recognize just how bad KC's defense is right now and not just assume the rest of the league is following suit.

If you look at league averages over the previous 5 years to in relation to now, there really isn't that much of a jump and the dispersion in the data sets of yards allowed by team is similar to the 2016 and 2015 seasons.

Here's some of the data, but you can easily look it all up on NFL.com

2018 24.2 pt/g 366.1 yd/g 5.7 yd/p
2017 21.7 pt/g 334.1 yd/g 5.3 yd/p
2016 22.8 pt/g 350.4 yd/g 5.5 yd/p
2015 22.8 pt/g 352.7 yd/g 5.5 yd/p
2014 22.6 pt/g 348.1 yd/g 5.4 yd/p
2013 23.4 pt/g 348.5 yd/g 5.4 yd/p

Top Team by year (to date)
2018 BAL 12.8 pt/g 270.8 yd/g 4.4 yd/p
2017 MIN 15.8 pt/g 275.9 yd/g 4.6 yd/p
2016 HOU 20.5 pt/g 301.3 yd/g 5.1 yd/p
2015 DEN 18.5 pt/g 283.1 yd/g 4.4 yd/p
2014 SEA 15.9 pt/g 267.1 yd/g 4.6 yd/p
2013 SEA 14.4 pt/g 273.6 yd/g 4.4 yd/p

Then you have this...
2018 Chiefs 28.7 pt//g 468.2 yd/g 6.6 yd/p

The NFL isn't atrocious at defense, the Kansas City Chiefs are.

I'm going to agree and disagree.

First of all, I agree that it's wrong to say "everybody is bad at defense" when clearly the Chiefs are far and away worse than nearly everybody else. This isn't an NFL problem, it's a Chiefs problem.

That being said, you can't diminish the importance of the trends. This season is on pace to break all kinds of passing and scoring records.

24.2 points per game, a net increase of almost a full point and a half over all previous years except 2013, doesn't seem large but in the context of the last 20 seasons, is statistically significant. So is the fact that passing TDs are up nearly half a TD per game. Yards per game, yards per play, passing efficiency, all up significantly over the past 10 years.

If you look at a larger historical sample, the trend becomes abundantly clear. The game is slanting further and further towards not only offensive but passing TDs, while INTs are decreasing at a proportional rate.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c.../NFL/index.htm

IUsedToBeATightEnd · 10-18-2018, 06:04 AM

You get a lot of penalty yards no matter what, under the current rules (unless you are the Pats or the Steelers). So its time to choose how and when to get those penalties. I'd much rather disregard the rules on QB tackles than let him throw a pass and get a questionable DPI call resulting in a loss from the spot of the foul. You give up less yardage and send a clear message to the QB. And if you rough the passer, rough him for good. I'm not sayin this can be done all the time, but given the chance in the right situation, hell, do it. And speaks letting go of Brady was one of those situations you shouldn't be concerned of roughing the passer IMHO. Penalties are such big part of the game it's time to learn to manage them, rather than trying to avoid them.
And teams should definitely find a way to reimburse the players who are fined for playing good football.

rabblerouser · 10-18-2018, 06:08 AM

Change with the times.

Fire Sutton, hire Paula Abdul as 'Defensive Coreographer'?

Sweet Daddy Hate · 10-18-2018, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabblerouser

Change with the times.

Fire Sutton, hire Paula Abdul as 'Defensive Coreographer'?

UK_Chief · 10-18-2018, 01:38 PM

Don’t worry about it because we have a gunslinger QB?

Chief Pagan · 10-18-2018, 02:00 PM

If you are talking about how to put together a good defense given the current rules, I think that has been covered above.

The defenseless receiver rules and hitting the QB have changed things. But it wouldn't be hard to shift things back, if the NFL wanted.

You could make it an automatic holding penalty if you put an armbar to the neck of the pass rusher. You could allow more hand fighting and jostling by DBs. You could be more aggressive about calling OPI on pick plays. And so on. If the NFL wanted.

But I think what the OP asked is how to do that when it appears casual fans want more offense and serious fans will bitch and moan but will watch it anyway.

So I think you are out of luck.

10-17-2018, 04:14 PM
Sweet Daddy Hate Unsparing Join Date: Aug 2008 Casino cash: $10004900	How do we overcome the NFL's desire to neuter defense? It appears that the NFL would love nothing more than for all of us to regress to the mindset, expectations, and attention spans of the average 8 year-old on game day. The average football youngster fan can tell you the names of his or her favorite QB's, Receivers, and even Running Backs( if said RB is an undeniable yardage monster ). Ask them about their favorite defensive players and you're just as likely to get a blank stare as you are a very short list of defensive superstars who are as well known for their commercials, endorsement deals, on-field antics, and off-field issues as they are for their play. Now before you take me to task over that last comment, let me first say that I know and understand that there ARE parents out there who enjoy teaching their kids about the team, who is who, and what they bring to the overall effort on BOTH sides of the ball. Bless you good parents for doing so. Had you asked me that question when I was a youngster, the best I could probably come up with was Mean Joe Green. Offense is exciting, I get that. Deep passes for massive gains, insane catches between multiple defenders, running backs busting through lines, juking defenders at the 2nd level, and then screaming off to the end zone leaving DB's in their wake. It's great entertainment that anyone watching, regardless of their knowledge of the game, can enjoy and be a part of. Defense is a little more tricky. Defense requires you to have some knowledge of the game to truly appreciate( or condemn )it. But once you do, there is no question whatsoever that it is far and away the most exciting phase of the game, especially if your squad is composed of 4 or more genuine all-stars. In coming across this article today( https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...m_campaign=nfl ), I found it interesting in that the writer touched on some points that have been under discussion at CP for some time. Namely, I found it both interesting and troubling that the writer points out a lack of defensive fundamentals( tackling etc.)not only with the Chiefs, but across the whole league. It seems to me that these fundamentals have been sacrificed in the name of a new defensive game that relies more on speed, intelligence/scheme, and finesse. Tackling, a subject that we beat to death around here, is on it's way to becoming a very nuanced "shade of grey" that can result in lost yardage through penalty and close games lost on the whims of officials. This is completely unacceptable. We spend so much time here joking about flying banners in an effort to effect change within our own organization when what we should be doing is creating a league-wide coalition of fans who are absolutely fed up with this bullshit, and who want OUR ***ing game returned to a state of balance where all three phases of the game have an unfettered opportunity to change the course of a game. The technology, science, and sports nutrition exist to counter the effects of a reasonably executed defensive standard where tackling, sacks, and properly laid wood can live in symbiotic harmony with 40 year-old QB's and 40+ point games. This isn't an either/or situation. I'm open to any ideas, no matter how far out they might seem. Create a "double roster" whereby starters can be rotated in and out of the game, either by rules or choice in an effort to keep the amount of playing time down for the individual and reduce potential long-term damage? Double the cap and let's roll. Allow the defense to hit hard under very defined guidelines and points of contact that if violated result in sitting that player out for a couple of defensive series, similar to hockey? That's certainly better than outright eliminating the very essence of defensive football. I don't want to wake up one day to find a completely unrecognizable game playing on my television. The game is not so far gone that we couldn't put the brakes on and at least make an attempt* to right the ship. And I know that CP is not the only site on the web frequented by fans of the game who are as sick and tired of this shit as we are. If SOC can accomplish the change it sought, then there is no reason that a similar organization comprised of fans the whole league over could not create a voice to be heard and reckoned with in this matter. After all, it is ultimately in the hands of the fans whether or not the NFL gets ratings, can generate revenue through advertisement, sell merchandise, fill stadiums, and pay its overhead and salaries.
Posts: 77,135

10-17-2018, 08:21 PM	#34
Titty Meat Inmem 2.0 Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: My house Casino cash: $2317558	Find the next Khalil Mack
Posts: 75,046

10-17-2018, 09:22 PM	#36
FloridaMan88 Mahomes: We Are All Witnesses Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Casino cash: $3202906	The Ravens are finding a way... see their 11 sack/shutout performance against the same Tennessee offense that fisted Sutton’s defense in the second half of the playoff collapse last season.
Posts: 38,105

10-17-2018, 09:41 PM	#37
kccrow MVP Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Michigan Casino cash: $3277078	Aside from the bullshit penalty that is the QB sack nowadays, NFL defenses aren't really giving up yardage numbers that far away from what they put up the last several years. I think we need to recognize just how bad KC's defense is right now and not just assume the rest of the league is following suit. If you look at league averages over the previous 5 years to in relation to now, there really isn't that much of a jump and the dispersion in the data sets of yards allowed by team is similar to the 2016 and 2015 seasons. Here's some of the data, but you can easily look it all up on NFL.com 2018 24.2 pt/g 366.1 yd/g 5.7 yd/p 2017 21.7 pt/g 334.1 yd/g 5.3 yd/p 2016 22.8 pt/g 350.4 yd/g 5.5 yd/p 2015 22.8 pt/g 352.7 yd/g 5.5 yd/p 2014 22.6 pt/g 348.1 yd/g 5.4 yd/p 2013 23.4 pt/g 348.5 yd/g 5.4 yd/p Top Team by year (to date) 2018 BAL 12.8 pt/g 270.8 yd/g 4.4 yd/p 2017 MIN 15.8 pt/g 275.9 yd/g 4.6 yd/p 2016 HOU 20.5 pt/g 301.3 yd/g 5.1 yd/p 2015 DEN 18.5 pt/g 283.1 yd/g 4.4 yd/p 2014 SEA 15.9 pt/g 267.1 yd/g 4.6 yd/p 2013 SEA 14.4 pt/g 273.6 yd/g 4.4 yd/p Then you have this... 2018 Chiefs 28.7 pt//g 468.2 yd/g 6.6 yd/p The NFL isn't atrocious at defense, the Kansas City Chiefs are.
Posts: 12,601

10-17-2018, 09:43 PM	#38
Hoover Rufus Dawes Jr. Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $1698179	1. Stop giving defensive players HUGE second contacts. 2. Always draft defensive playmakers. 3. Focus on stopping shot plays like runs, screen passes, and TEs. 4. Set appropriate expectations-there is no such thing as a shut down defense unless you are playing someone with a shit QB 5 Draft a franchise altering QB in the draft!
Posts: 17,342

10-17-2018, 09:46 PM	#39
carcosa Thank you Join Date: May 2014 Casino cash: $2863695	penus
Posts: 22,800

10-18-2018, 06:04 AM	#41
IUsedToBeATightEnd Starter Join Date: Oct 2018 Casino cash: $10000400	You get a lot of penalty yards no matter what, under the current rules (unless you are the Pats or the Steelers). So its time to choose how and when to get those penalties. I'd much rather disregard the rules on QB tackles than let him throw a pass and get a questionable DPI call resulting in a loss from the spot of the foul. You give up less yardage and send a clear message to the QB. And if you rough the passer, rough him for good. I'm not sayin this can be done all the time, but given the chance in the right situation, hell, do it. And speaks letting go of Brady was one of those situations you shouldn't be concerned of roughing the passer IMHO. Penalties are such big part of the game it's time to learn to manage them, rather than trying to avoid them. And teams should definitely find a way to reimburse the players who are fined for playing good football.
Posts: 171

10-18-2018, 06:08 AM	#42
rabblerouser left blank intentionally Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Belize Nuts Casino cash: $4704897	Change with the times. Fire Sutton, hire Paula Abdul as 'Defensive Coreographer'? __________________ MY ADOPT-A-CHIEF : Jody Fortson Jr.
Posts: 32,166

10-18-2018, 01:38 PM	#44
UK_Chief Veteran Join Date: Nov 2012 Casino cash: $6856512	Don’t worry about it because we have a gunslinger QB?
Posts: 1,723

10-18-2018, 02:00 PM	#45
Chief Pagan Sometimes it's black and white Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: California Casino cash: $3794900	If you are talking about how to put together a good defense given the current rules, I think that has been covered above. The defenseless receiver rules and hitting the QB have changed things. But it wouldn't be hard to shift things back, if the NFL wanted. You could make it an automatic holding penalty if you put an armbar to the neck of the pass rusher. You could allow more hand fighting and jostling by DBs. You could be more aggressive about calling OPI on pick plays. And so on. If the NFL wanted. But I think what the OP asked is how to do that when it appears casual fans want more offense and serious fans will bitch and moan but will watch it anyway. So I think you are out of luck.
Posts: 6,136