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Old 08-07-2018, 08:38 AM  
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Bankruptcy Booms Among Older Americans

Thoughts and Prayers Boomers. You made this bed.

‘Too Little Too Late’: Bankruptcy Booms Among Older Americans

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For a rapidly growing share of older Americans, traditional ideas about life in retirement are being upended by a dismal reality: bankruptcy.

The signs of potential trouble — vanishing pensions, soaring medical expenses, inadequate savings — have been building for years. Now, new research sheds light on the scope of the problem: The rate of people 65 and older filing for bankruptcy is three times what it was in 1991, the study found, and the same group accounts for a far greater share of all filers.

Driving the surge, the study suggests, is a three-decade shift of financial risk from government and employers to individuals, who are bearing an ever-greater responsibility for their own financial well-being as the social safety net shrinks.

The transfer has come in the form of, among other things, longer waits for full Social Security benefits, the replacement of employer-provided pensions with 401(k) savings plans and more out-of-pocket spending on health care. Declining incomes, whether in retirement or leading up to it, compound the challenge.

....

As the study, from the Consumer Bankruptcy Project, explains, older people whose finances are precarious have few places to turn. “When the costs of aging are off-loaded onto a population that simply does not have access to adequate resources, something has to give,” the study says, “and older Americans turn to what little is left of the social safety net — bankruptcy court.”

“You can manage O.K. until there is a little stumble,” said Deborah Thorne, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Idaho and an author of the study. “It doesn’t even take a big thing.”

The data gathered by the researchers is stark. From February 2013 to November 2016, there were 3.6 bankruptcy filers per 1,000 people 65 to 74; in 1991, there were 1.2.

Not only are more older people seeking relief through bankruptcy, but they also represent a widening slice of all filers: 12.2 percent of filers are now 65 or older, up from 2.1 percent in 1991.

The jump is so pronounced, the study says, that the aging of the baby boom generation cannot explain it.

Although the actual number of older people filing for bankruptcy was relatively small — about 100,000 a year during the period in question — the researchers said it signaled that there were many more people in financial distress.

....

The study does not delve into those underlying factors, but separate data provides some insight. The median household led by someone 65 or older had liquid savings of $60,600 in 2016, according to the Employee Benefit Research Institute, whereas the bottom 25 percent of households had saved at most $3,260.

That doesn’t provide much of a financial cushion for a catastrophic health problem. Older Americans typically turn to Medicare to pay their medical bills. But gaps in coverage, high premiums and requirements that patients shoulder some costs force many lower-income beneficiaries to spend more of their own income on those bills, the Kaiser Family Foundation found.

By 2013, the average Medicare beneficiary’s out-of-pocket spending on health care consumed 41 percent of the average Social Security check, according to Kaiser, which also estimated that the figure would rise.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/b....nav=top-news&

Maybe another round of tax cuts for the top percent while we cut social security and medicare will do the trick!

Great thing they convinced you boomer to give up unions and pensions.

Good luck boomers! Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, get some training, and go support yourselves.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:52 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Lex Luthor View Post
If you're asking questions like this on election day (and you've already said you are voting today), does that make you a well-informed voter with a firm grasp of the issues and the candidates, or does it make you a low-information voter?
I originally thought I was an informed voter. Then Lone mentioned some Republicans wanting to do away with Medicaid and Social Security. I was not aware of anyone running on that platform. I asked him a few times about it. When he finally got around to answering me (kinda anyways) it turned out that nobody he knew of was running on such a platform. Just some Republicans that are already elected (would you consider this a fair assessment Lone?)

... so I guess long story short, I know as much now as I did before about the actual candidates that were running today. Does that help?
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:11 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Over Yonder View Post
Who is it I need to vote for? I haven't seen anybody running on these platforms.
That platform is non-existent for a reason. Gee, wonder why.
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Old 08-08-2018, 12:25 AM
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Old 08-08-2018, 05:13 AM   #108
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by Over Yonder View Post
I originally thought I was an informed voter. Then Lone mentioned some Republicans wanting to do away with Medicaid and Social Security. I was not aware of anyone running on that platform. I asked him a few times about it. When he finally got around to answering me (kinda anyways) it turned out that nobody he knew of was running on such a platform. Just some Republicans that are already elected (would you consider this a fair assessment Lone?)

... so I guess long story short, I know as much now as I did before about the actual candidates that were running today. Does that help?
You have now tripled down on dumb even after getting a big hint.

You've never heard Paul Ryan, the speaker, campaign on privatizing Medicare?

I love watching morons triple down on stupid. Yes, you are a low information voter.
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:20 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by scho63 View Post
This was caused by one major event......the lowering of interest rates to ZERO.

Senior citizens lost billions and billions in SAFE income when rates went from 7-6-5-4-3-2-1-0% and their income went from $40,000 a year to $4,000 a year.

This caused a monumental shift out of safe CD's, municipal bonds and high rated corporate binds into RISKY INVESTMENTS.

This is the #1 cause.
But but but Scho, it’s all due to the lack of UNIONS. LoneGenious said so! The fiscal policies of the Fed can’t have ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT.

No. The government can’t have any fault here. Government is The Only Source Of Goodness In the World.

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Old 08-08-2018, 07:33 AM   #110
2bikemike 2bikemike is offline
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
Does no one math?

If, and this is a big IF, you can contribute a full $1,000 a month (15 percent of around 6700 or $80,000ish a year ) into a 401K, that's 12,000 a year. Times 30 years is $360,000. Yes, this isn't taken into account earnings off that money in the market.

So, what double it? Triple it? Let's triple it. Let's say the market did great over that 30 years with zero down turns. Make it an even million.

You have a million dollars in a 401k. Great, right?

Never touch it. Ever. EVER. With a modest return of 5 percent, you'll get $50,000 in today's money a year. Not that 80,000 you were making before, but alright, especially if you pay your house off before you retire.

But wait, the average 65 year old couple who retired in 2015 is projected to need $276,000 just to cover their medical expenses for the reminder of their lifetime. Can you pay that off with say 50k a year? (I means, that's only 6 times the amount you are getting). Better have the house paid off and no other sudden expenses.

Man, seems difficult, even if you are lucky enough to retire with a cool million in the 401k. Wonder how many people actually do that.



Oh, damn. Yeah, seniors a fudged.
The problem with your premise is it's just too simplistic. Compounding is an extremely powerful tool. Lets take your example. $1000/month for 30 years with a 5% earnings. At that rate over 30 years you would have $830,000.

I realize there are still a lot of variables and my example is nearly as simplistic as yours. Since we are assuming 80K over a 30 year period and saving 15%. Over my working career my pay as gone up 4x at what I started at. It is not very unrealistic to expect to have over a million in a retirement account. The other thing about your premise is you are using $50k which is just the earning on that cool Mil. You could actually draw another 4% or $40k (the recommended amount to preserve your capital) Yes I understand that this leads to a small reduction in what you could draw every year. Personally I don't intend to leave anything to my children. I expect to spend it all and bounce the check to the undertaker!

https://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/...row/index.html

Ask just about any financial expert and they will tell you we just don't save enough. Financial literacy is very poor in this country.
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:41 AM   #111
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It is very tempting to yet again abuse LoneIdiot. For example, does he really think unions could have overcome the massive glut of labor that hit the marketplace over the last 30 years? Just look at the rise of contract workers and realize that it’s because companies are looking to get around benefits packages dictated by law for employees.

You can redirect the flow of the free market using regulation. But you aren’t going to reverse the Niagra river. Nor can u repeal the law of supply and demand (even though governments have been trying for more than 2,000 years).

But, health care costs are indeed a problem. Waste is huge. I work for a health care IT firm. I know all about this. Part of the problem is unscrupulous companies. Big pharma is one of the worst abusers. Yet, much of the problem is that companies have exploited truly Byzantine regulatory regimes for their own benefit. Are legislators and regulators really this stupid, or have Congress critters been bought off by their dark money sponsors?

One problem is administrative bloat in health care. Since 1990, the number of people working in the health care field has jumped 75%. That seems encouraging until u find out that only 5% are health care professionals. The bulk has been more administrators. Utilization rates of health care facilities has actually declined. But the costs have still increased.

One reason is that ins. Companies pursue a blatant denial strategy. They try to find any thin justification to deny a claim without violating bad faith laws. Deny deny deny, and hope the claimant gives up, or misses their 6 month window to file a claim. To combat this denial strategy, health care providers have had to increase administrative staff. This stupid bureaucratic war is wasting significant resources.

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Old 08-08-2018, 07:43 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Loneiguana View Post
You have now tripled down on dumb even after getting a big hint.

You've never heard Paul Ryan, the speaker, campaign on privatizing Medicare?

I love watching morons triple down on stupid. Yes, you are a low information voter.

You were voted the "stupid mother ****er on the planet" for a reason, because
you are...

Medicare and Medicaid are currently unsustainable at their current levels and need reform. So you, in your brilliance, equate finding a more efficient way to run the program through block grants to states or giving Seniors the "OPTION" of enrolling in private plans as "eliminating" the program. In your stupor you also believe that cuts in growth, are slashing and eliminating the program. You and the left will ignore and demigod the problem until austerity measures will be applied and real pain is felt.

Congrats again on your Douchebag of the Year and DMFOTP wins in back to back years...
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:46 AM   #113
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Seniors created this problem. They created the system. They didn't do a good job managing their own retirement. They asked for a ginormous amount of entitlements that have bankrupted the system and will throw tons of debt into the next generations.

And still, I suspect, it will be somebody else's fault.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:05 AM   #114
2bikemike 2bikemike is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Seniors created this problem. They created the system. They didn't do a good job managing their own retirement. They asked for a ginormous amount of entitlements that have bankrupted the system and will throw tons of debt into the next generations.

And still, I suspect, it will be somebody else's fault.
I agree most of these seniors did a horrible job managing their retirements. But what entitlement did they ask for? Social Security? Medicare? I didn't ask to be a part of that. I was told I had to. It wasn't the baby boomers who started these programs. Boomers started being born in 1946 social security started in 1935. Medicare started in 1965 when the first boomer hit 19.
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:29 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by 2bikemike View Post
The problem with your premise is it's just too simplistic. Compounding is an extremely powerful tool. Lets take your example. $1000/month for 30 years with a 5% earnings. At that rate over 30 years you would have $830,000.
That's why I rounded up to 1 million dollars.

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Originally Posted by 2bikemike View Post
I realize there are still a lot of variables and my example is nearly as simplistic as yours. Since we are assuming 80K over a 30 year period and saving 15%. Over my working career my pay as gone up 4x at what I started at. It is not very unrealistic to expect to have over a million in a retirement account. The other thing about your premise is you are using $50k which is just the earning on that cool Mil. You could actually draw another 4% or $40k (the recommended amount to preserve your capital) Yes I understand that this leads to a small reduction in what you could draw every year. Personally I don't intend to leave anything to my children. I expect to spend it all and bounce the check to the undertaker!

I don't care about inheritance, your money do what you want, as I watch my parents obsess over their parents money. I also expect most of it to be gone thanks to the insane price of nursing homes even with nursing home insurance.

Anyway, its the withdrawing early that f's a lot of people. Cause what's easier, paying off that large medical debt or having monthly payments on a fixed income? Its a hard choice.

One I wish we didn't ask seniors to make.

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Originally Posted by 2bikemike View Post

https://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/...row/index.html

Ask just about any financial expert and they will tell you we just don't save enough. Financial literacy is very poor in this country.
It would be nice in the wealthiest nation in the world if we could ensure even the dumbest and least prepared among us could retire with the peace of mind something is there. That is the point of S.S and medicare.
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:34 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by IowaHawkeyeChief View Post
You were voted the "stupid mother ****er on the planet" for a reason, because
you are...

Medicare and Medicaid are currently unsustainable at their current levels and need reform. So you, in your brilliance, equate finding a more efficient way to run the program through block grants to states or giving Seniors the "OPTION" of enrolling in private plans as "eliminating" the program. In your stupor you also believe that cuts in growth, are slashing and eliminating the program. You and the left will ignore and demigod the problem until austerity measures will be applied and real pain is felt.

Congrats again on your Douchebag of the Year and DMFOTP wins in back to back years...
Medicare and Medicaid are not unsustainable and are actually more efficient than the private market.

As usually, you mix busted talking points with out right stupidity.

Damn, Trumpers are stupid people.
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:40 AM   #117
Loneiguana Loneiguana is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
Seniors created this problem. They created the system. They didn't do a good job managing their own retirement. They asked for a ginormous amount of entitlements that have bankrupted the system and will throw tons of debt into the next generations.

And still, I suspect, it will be somebody else's fault.
They bought wholesale into the idea that 401k are just the same as pensions, that they could manage their own retirement (because planning for medical costs in the early 90s, one should easily foresee the massive inflation in medical costs ), that the government sucked so we shouldn't even try to keep S.S. and medicare alive, taxes are evil, so don't fund anything.
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:44 AM   #118
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I agree most of these seniors did a horrible job managing their retirements. But what entitlement did they ask for? Social Security? Medicare? I didn't ask to be a part of that. I was told I had to. It wasn't the baby boomers who started these programs. Boomers started being born in 1946 social security started in 1935. Medicare started in 1965 when the first boomer hit 19.
To me, it isn't just that. It's also union negotiated pensions and perks that absolutely bankrupted the system. As for Medicare and medicaid... Seniors threw a fit when there was discussion that we may cut into it. Meanwhile, they opted out of long term care which makes them even more reliant on public funded Healthcare and will soon lead to a home health care crisis because they refuse to leave their homes into long term care facilities. Seniors have been ginormously dependent benefits and entitlements. Theyve raided all our systems, left behind tons of debt, and they continue to borrow and borrow.
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:12 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 View Post
To me, it isn't just that. It's also union negotiated pensions and perks that absolutely bankrupted the system. As for Medicare and medicaid... Seniors threw a fit when there was discussion that we may cut into it. Meanwhile, they opted out of long term care which makes them even more reliant on public funded Healthcare and will soon lead to a home health care crisis because they refuse to leave their homes into long term care facilities. Seniors have been ginormously dependent benefits and entitlements. Theyve raided all our systems, left behind tons of debt, and they continue to borrow and borrow.
The problems will continue as long as people still push these outdated and busted ideas that Social Security and Pensions that actually allowed for a comfortable retirement is the problem.
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Old 08-08-2018, 10:24 AM   #120
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That platform is non-existent for a reason. Gee, wonder why.
Tell that to Lone. He seems to think that every Republican on the planet is fully embracing it. If they were, I wouldn't have to leave as many lines on my ballot blank.

He did finally mention one name though, Paul Ryan. So kudos to him for that I guess. So one swamp critter that is leaving Congress apparently wants it to happen anyways
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Posts: 3,570
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